1120 replies to this topic

[shadowcreature]

The function of the Blue Mountains does sound interesting, upgrades sound possible like maybe renaming the Siege Hammer Upgrade. The unit mentioned may make a middle tier infantry/mid game archer unit. However, I'm not so sure on any resource output upgrades considering there is a power for that at the moment.

[Uruk King]

Maybe it could be removed, if in favour of a more permanent economy upgrade.

[shadowcreature]

It's something to consider if the ayes have it, I do like the idea of an upgrade boost compared to a temporary power.

[*Ranger*]

this is just an idea but: How about swapping the dwarven fortress with the 25pp citadel power? To me it looks a hell of alot better and more of a dwarvish fortress. All that will be needed is to beef up the expansions because theres not as many and maybe buildup animations.

EDIT: Ok having looked at them closer it will need abit more work eg. banner upgrades, boiling oil ect.


2nd edit: I was browsing the w3d models in Renx and found this: I have no idea why this didnt become their statue

Edited by *Ranger*, 16 April 2009 - 11:30 AM.

[Eärendur]

Maybe the Blue Mountains sub-faction/clan could be comprised of very balanced units that are not particularly adept against any unit in particular. But the Clan's structures could be its strong suit (e.g., the whole faction's strongest walls, mineshafts that produce more Recourses than the other clans', two kinds of defensive structures, like Axe Towers and a structure kind of like the Isenguard Warg Sentry, that has dwarves come out and attack nearby enemies,). And even though the clan's units will be generally weak in comparison to the other clans, all Blue Mountains units could get major buffs (say, +150% armor, damage and attack speed) when near their own structures.

Edited by Eärendur, 16 April 2009 - 08:11 PM.

[mike_]

I'd have the Dwarves like this:
Base Factions:
-Erebor
~heavy infantry, armour upgrades, siege
-Dale
~economy, cavalry
Secondary Factions:
-Esgaroth
~ranged infantry, economy bonuses (trade)
-Ered Luin
~huge economy bonuses
-Grey Mountains
~my 'Firebeard Remnants'. Extremely heavy infantry with awesome freakin' gear.
-Iron Hills
~versatile infantry

I'd have the Base Factions each do their own thing for the faction - have mainly cheap Dale economy buildings but still have expensive but fantastic Dwarven mines, as well as the early-game infantry ingame. Erebor would supply upgrades and heavy infantry, as well as siege.

The Secondary Factions could be unlockable either through fortress upgrades (meh, might be overused by now) or Powers. This would fill up the power tree and help out with unique ideas (less slots to worry with equal more thought put into them, IMHO). Each would be used when needed - call up the Ered Luin if you're having economy problems, the Iron Hills if you're low on numbers, Grey Mountains if Trolls etc are giving you problems, and Esgaroth for that ranged bonus. Each could be scattered throughout the tiers in accordance with their usefullness/geographic location - Esgaroth would be a first-tier since archery is need early (and they're closer) while the Iron Hills would be a secondary concern, Ered Luin to get the economy pumping, you get the idea.

[Uruk King]

I thought the Dwarf holds in the Grey Mountains were diminished, they were unhabited by orcs by the time of The Hobbit. I doubt that there would have been any dwarves there by the time of the War of the Ring, with all the pressure from orcs and dragons.

But still they're nice ideas

[shadowcreature]

I like Mike's ideas for the Dwarves, very interesting variety given the limited information on them.

@Uruk: Yes, the Grey Mountains were a former Dwarf hold, but like you said it is very unlikely that any would still dwell there from the denizens there.

If the Grey Mountians could supplement any faction, maybe Goblins.

[primeminister03]

I like the idea mike, but I have a few of my own as well. Maybe, we can come to a consensus. My ideas:


Erebor:

Decent Melee Troops, Best Range of the Dwarven factions, Most balanced of the Dwarven sub-factions;

1. Men of Dale-basic swordsman

2. Dwarven Hammer Guardian-Elite Swordsman/basic siege melee

3. Dwarven Pikemen-All-around Pikes(What is the Dwarven Phalanx currently)

4. Dwarven Axe Throwers(With the new Melee/Ranged toggle with timer idea)-Basic Archer unit/melee support

5. Archers of Dale-Elite Archer Unit

6. Dale Battle Wagon-Basic Cavalry(Like the Wain Riders, with possible Swordsmen ugrade that boosts melee damage all around the wagon)

7. Dwarven Rune Masters-Siege Weapon(Like Elven siege weapons, except Earth based damage and magic. Just a suggestion )

8. Dwarven Zealots-MHH

9. Dale Catapults-basic siege weapon

10. Dwarven Captain-Leadership buffer single unit for all Melee troops


Iron Hills:

Heavy Siege Weapons, Heavy Melee Troops;

1. Dwarven Axe Guardians-Basic/mid game melee unit

2. Dwarven Halbardiers-Basic spearman unit

3. Dwarven Elite Warriors-Dual Axe wielding troops-Elite Melee troops(Better than everything except MHH)

4. Dwarven Phalanx-Actual Phalanx a.k.a. with Shields and Polearms-Elite pikemen(Not as strong as the Tower Guard, but still tough)

5. Dwarven Javelin Throwers-Basic Archer unit

6. Iron Hills Catapult

7. Demolisher

8. Dwarven Battle Wagon(replace the men of dale and axe thrower upgrade with a Mithril Armor upgrade and a Javelin Thrower Upgrade)

9. Dwarven Barrel Launcher-Siege Support (Fires the fire barrels in a three barrel burst-This would be awesome!)

10. Dwarven Berserkers-MHH(Two-handed Axe wielders like Zealots, but with a knockback ability for like 50% of the time)


Ered Luin:

Fastest Growing Economy, Best Defenses/Toughest Buildings of the Dwarven sub-factions;

1. Dwarven Miners-basic melee unit(Very much like Rohan's Peasants. They could be equiped with pickaxes and receive armor upgrades and banner carriers)

2. Dwarven Spears-basic anti-cavalry unit(Probably the weakest but fastest of the Dwarves anti-cavalry units)

3. Dwarven Defenders-Elite melee unit(Two-handed axe wielders. They could use the dwarven walking axe. There is a model of it in the CAH section and they could use Gloin's animations)

4. Dwarven Axe Throwers-Basic Archer unit(Like the Axe Throwers are currently, but more damage and slower firing rate)

5. Dwarven Crossbowmen-Elite Archer units(Shorter distances than typical bows, like Isengard)

6. Dwarven Battle Wagon-basic cavalry unit(Replace Dale upgrade with Dwarven crossbowmen upgrade)

7. Dwarven Ram-Melee Siege Weapon(Manual Ram operated by dwarves)

8. Dwarven Ballista-Ranged Siege Weapon

9. Dwarven Lord-Single Dwarven Elite Unit(Like the Uruk Berserker, but with a Two-handed Hammer. He could also due a Stun effect to a small radius of surrounding enemies)

10. Dwarven Royal Guard-MHH(Melee units that can toggle to Axe Throwing)


Heroes:

Erebor: Gimli, Gloin, Brand

Iron Hills: Dain, Stonehelm

Ered Luin: Dwalin, New Hero

[mike_]

I don't want the Dwarves to be split up Elven-like. It's a unique system that should be kept to the Elves. That's why I suggest a powers-based one for the Dwarves.

[shadowcreature]

After reading the two new Dwarven techtrees, I'm siding with Mike's. Primeministers is a start, but too much overlapping imo.

[primeminister03]

It's really not up to me. And I'm okay with that. Like I said I am willing to come to a consensus. But, there are some unique unit ideas I mentioned that I think would bring in some good sub-factioning for the dwarves.

In the end, I will let the Mod team decide what's best. I'm just throwing in some ideas to help get things rolling.

[shadowcreature]

I hear you, some of them were interesting.

Does anyone find the Catapults' barrel OP?

[Uruk King]

Against sturctures, no because I have builders to sort it out, when on used on my units, a bit.

On Mike's techtree, I'd suggest merging Dale and Esgaroth as one secondary faction.

[shadowcreature]

Good points, I guess i don't like having my troops getting bbq'ed.

I 2nd merging Dale and Esgaroth considering they would only provide a couple support units.

[Githiran]

i know this is a bit off topic considering what you have been talking about on this page, and i couldnt be asked to read through the 50 odd pages there were to see if itd already been said, but i wanted to suggest something.

i love a bit of strategy when it comes to powers, and i was wondering if there was a way you could maybe get either ,as a hero power or PP power, a mountain/wall summon.

i was thinking of a large radius mountain/ large gate style wall that could be used as both a defensive path blocker/ gap in a wall sealer, but also initially to deal damage and knockback to where it is summoned (kind of like a huge undermine special. could also be useful for sectioning off large armies). i just thought itd be nice to use, maybe like this;

Name: Terrestrial Rage
PP: 15-25?
Description: Summons a (mountain/wall of earth) from the (iron hills, dwarvy place thingy) to...

I have the idea, its just getting it to paper which i cant think of.

Also, why cant dwarves be more of a faction that rely on defense and buildings (either decent fortifications or many powers that destroy them)? Maybe powers that revolve around crippling buldings, lowering their resources, upping your resources, stealing resources, etc. Considering that dwarves are supposed to be known for their ability to craftsmanship, i thought thatd be better as a main focus. Just a thought, unless you are really far ahead with them and dont wanna change them

[Uruk King]

On the 1st point, all magic in Middle-earth was of a subtle sort, nothing obvious, only the Valar and the Maiar could muster what we would consider true arcane magic. And Dwarves were not magicians the way the Elves were, who were in tune with the innate magic of the earth, which was something subtle. all the "magic" the dwarves could muster was the ability to perfect their craft. Nothing absurdly magical, in fact the Dwarves were suspicious of magic, whichis why they had a disttrust for Elves, that and other reasons.

Hopefully the Dwarves and their Spells will become less, well magical, and more about craftsmanship, defense, fortitute, sufficiency, and strength. I'm not too sure about stealing resources from enemy factions because Dwarves weren't really theives like orcs, and all that seaky business that involves stealing right from under the enemies' nose doesn't sound Dwarfish to me. But soon the Dwarves will have an improved sense of craftsmanship and all that I mentioned earlier

[*Ranger*]

Is it possible to have a power that fully upgrades units in a certain area?

[{IRS}Athos]

Now that would be a good final tier power.

[Bengamey]

I had an idea for dwarves and maybe goblins too for the tunnel network system :

Network can stock 5 units at the beginning linked to Fortress, Mine entrances, Secret entrance and Mine hubs. It needs 5 sec to have units get out of the network.

- Mine entrances cost 500 but produce 1.5 as much ressources and housing as farms. Linked to the mine network. But can be built only within a circle around a fortress or "mine-hub" (about the same size as wallradius around the fortress) They are also more resistant than farms but needs more time to be built (at the beginning the tunnels don't go too far around the fortress) .

- Mine-hub cost 1000 can be build anywhere on the map. Linked to the network, They allow to build mine entrance around them. They have a small tower with archers or crossbows or axe thrower
3 upgrades
Stone halls : increase by 5 the number of battalion you can stock in the network.
Mithril Seam : increase by 50% the production rate of all mines
Stone lords : increase the armor and Hp of every Mine-hub and mine entrances

- Secret entrance . Building always stealthed that can be spawn on the map with a power and that is link to the network.

- Fortress : Linked to the network.
[u] Great miners and crafters of the mountain [u] new upgrade that increase then radius within you can build mines and increase the size of the network by 5

Edited by Bengamey, 19 April 2009 - 02:36 PM.