769 replies to this topic

[Excuse_me_princess]

??

Why do you guys get so worked up about things like this?

[Scryer]

Interesting point of view... I like it in a way but there would be no way that I would adopt it as lore. At best, it's just an interesting interpretation of the lore.

[Excuse_me_princess]

Interesting point of view... I like it in a way but there would be no way that I would adopt it as lore. At best, it's just an interesting interpretation of the lore.

(Finally, someone who knows how to react in a normal fashion.)

I know, but whether it's all just a fabricated myth based upon coincidences or a real puzzle implemented by Tolkien, I still think it's interesting to read.
Think of it what you will and do with it what you will, I just posted it here to put it up for discussion.

[Dalf32]

the nazgul have no free-will outside the orders of sauron. this means that simply, the witch king cannot be tom bombadil without having made the decision to 'defy' sauron. he (the witch king) cannot do this.
ergo, witch king =/= tom bombadil.

[Excuse_me_princess]

True, true.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I still have a few blank spots.
If the Witch King (being a Nazgul) had no free will of his own so how was he able to build the kingdom of Angmar after the first defeat of his master, without Suarons direct guidance?
I'm not suggesting he didn't follow Saurons orders, he did get back to the fight at Pellenor fields instead of fighting Gandalf.
Wasn't there something that made him different from other Nazgul?
I'm not trying to back stab anyone here, just want to get things clear

[Dalf32]

that is a good point. i would then infer that because he was the greatest of the nazgul and the lieutenant of sauron, that he had some autonomy. having said that, i still doubt very highly that he had that much autonomy.

[Ring o' Fate]

....Anythig is possible.

Edited by Ring of Fate, 07 June 2009 - 02:35 AM.

[Excuse_me_princess]

Perhaps, as the leader of the Nazgul, sauron wanted him to make his own decisions.
Troops have to follow orders from higher up, see it as some sort of guidance, without this guidance the nazgul wouldn't be more than just pawns in a chess game.
Suaron gave them orders, yes, but they would go as far as doing what he ordered, if the situation chanced, they could not anticipate and chance their plan on their own.
So perhaps the Witch King was the link between Sauron and the nazgul and he separated himself from the rest because he had the ability improvise.

Okay, now I'm going to shoot into the dark.
What if he regained some sort of selfconsciousness through this ability to improvise.
As the Witch King he did evil things because Sauron ordered him to, as the Witch King he was compelled to obey.
But as Tom Bombadil he wouldn't have to.

One interesting thing to note:
The Witch King is but a shell of his former personality, which was a good guy.
Tom Bombadil has a very jolly and playful personality which sometimes could be described as childish (dancing, singing)
That's the complete opposite of the Witch King, but as his own personality, it's very simple.
What other personality could a nazgul device other than the complete opposite of what he is.
He was human once, what if he tried to copy the joys in his former live, but because he couldn't completely remember them or restrain himself, they grew out to be Tom Bombadil?
Just consider that there was an awfull lot of time that transpired between his rebirth as the Witch King and the war of the ring.

I'm not saying that the WK/TB theory is true perse, but it certainly is interesting to put it to the test

[{IRS}Athos]

*comes around with the death-cart again and nails WK=TB to it*

[Devon]

[Ring o' Fate]

Lol, post that evevywhere, that will stop spamming.
On a serious note, no one WAS spamming. He no kittens were harmed during our Conversation. ( )

Edited by Ring of Fate, 08 June 2009 - 06:08 AM.

[{IRS}Athos]

Hey, I told you all not to throw meat to the Olog, but nooooooooo...

Ringy, not correcting that last post has been a supreme act of willpower...

BACK ON TOPIC, I think that it's unreasonable for goblins to cost more than orc warriors and be weaker, even if their archers cost less. Goblins go down extremely quickly to almost everything (orcs do so only slightly more slowly) and yet they cost 50 resources... 50 more than the orcs. Or perhaps I should take this over to the goblin topic... I have something to say about their pikemen too.

[Ring o' Fate]

....NO ONE WAS FEEDING THE OLOG!!!!!!!!!
And so? A few errors? Who cares?

[Excuse_me_princess]

??

I still don't get why certain people got so worked up about it?

But, back on topic.
If the wall upgrade is purchased, will it still be applied within a certain radius of a fortress or globally?

[Devon]

BACK ON TOPIC, I think that it's unreasonable for goblins to cost more than orc warriors and be weaker, even if their archers cost less. Goblins go down extremely quickly to almost everything (orcs do so only slightly more slowly) and yet they cost 50 resources... 50 more than the orcs. Or perhaps I should take this over to the goblin topic... I have something to say about their pikemen too.

Poison>orcs, plus you have the potential for upgrades if you want...

[Martini]

For now they are with Evil Men. I might be persuaded to change them, but I added them to Evil Men for a couple of reasons. First, they do not answer to Rhun or Harad, but instead the opposite. I view them as the commanders in charge of the two armies. Khamul for the Easterlings/Rhun and Indur for the Haradrim/Harad. While the nine would be great to have all in one faction, it can be overkill in my opinion, and it seems logical to me to have some in the other faction.

The question could be asked why they are not in Isengard or Goblins, but I do not believe they fit their compared to other areas. I don't believe Saruman would take orders directly from Nazguls, though Sauron might use them to keep an eye on Saruman. Also, it is my belief that Saruman was not a specific ally to Mordor, but more using Mordor/Sauron until he could find the ring for himself and overthrown Sauron. He took assesment of the situation, and as an Istari he was always planning to overthrow Sauron, but he wanted to place himself in Sauron's seat. The goblins/wild, I don't thing they fit there either for a number of reasons.

So all that being said, I want 2 Nazgul for Evil Men, 1 that comes on a fellbeast and the other on horseback. I'm trying to limit hero duplication, so I removed them from Mordor. I'm still open to almost any change as long as I agree with it, but that is how it stands now.

As for the orcs, I am looking into what I'd like to do. I have some ideas (one being the ability to build an orc tent to produce the black uruks and other units once you have a level 3 orc pit.) I just want to make sure that whatever I do, at any point it the game you have a reason to put each unit in play.

Hello,

I actually disagree with having two of the Nazgul in the MotE, because it's like making cake, but skipping a few steps, you're not really going to get cake right? My arguments are that if you already have Khamul and Ji Indur leading the Haradrim, then wouldn't it be logical to have Dwar of Waw lead the Variags of Khand and Uvatha the Horseman lead the Corsairs? Well, I must agree, I was thinking of balancing out the Nazgul into four for the MotE and five for Mordor at first, but after some thought, I've decided that I'm backing the Idea of having all nine belong to Mordor as they are the direct servants of Sauron and I'd goes as far as saying, they were his first loyal servants and I think they best stay together, than dividing them. So yeah, my point of view on the Nazgul issue.

Cheers!

[Dalf32]

i believe the idea of having two of the nazgul in mote is to reinforce the idea that they are servants of sauron, even though they are men.
ill say once again, i dont agree with putting all 9 nazgul in mordor mostly because there are already way too many heros in mordor (to the point that there are a few issues reviving them at times) and the extra 2 nazgul wouldnt make a noticeable difference to the faction as a whole. other than further incentive to spam nazgul of course.

[Martini]

Well, you still need a Corsair king and a sweep of the encyclopedia of Arda, could bring up a name or two. It's pretty annoying to have such stubborn project member... There were quite a few of us who would like to see the MotE Nazgul free. The Nazguls are the direct and loyal servants of SAURON and don't lead any army. It's just wrong. They might lead orcs and uruks, but men are lead by other men. So what if some people would like to Nazgul spam, if they like that tactic let them use it. You as a beta tester should be open-minded to the publics idea and not just dismiss them... Personally I'd like to have the MotE to be just a faction comprimised fully of men and the dragon. What we seem to forget is that not every MotE is a servant of Sauron. Let me quote: Faramir: "The enemy? His sense of duty was no less than yours, I deem. You wonder what his name is, where he came from, and if he was really evil at heart. What lies or threats led him on this long march from home. If he would not rather have stayed there in peace." We could replace the two Nazguls with Castamir the Usurper, the first of the Corsairs and it would be more realistic. It would be much better in the case of the WotR . Instead of two Nazguls and the Easterling captain and Haradrim cheiftain, we could have the King of Khand, Pirate king of Umbar and the two previous mortal heroes.

Cheers Martini

[Dalf32]

im having a discussion. im not dismissing anyone's ideas. i see my job as a beta tester (with the current state of the mod) is to keep the forums from getting out of control, to try and weed out any particularly bad ideas thrown about, or to clear things up.

i also never claim that my opinion on the matter is the be-all-end-all of the mod. it certainly isnt. i simply state what i think because that is how you have a discussion. keep in mind that not everyone will agree with all of your ideas, and those people will likely want to fight to keep themselves represented within the scope of this mod.

having said that, i dont personally want nazgul spam to be as easily an option as it is now because it can make mordor near impossible to beat.
i see no reason why the nazgul would not lead the mote into battle. the witch-king was sauron's greatest leutenaint, so i dont think its a stretch to say that the other nazgul would be used to lead his other servants into battle.

[Martini]

Hello again,
I'm going to be very dramatic and direct, so don't get offended. You classic beta testers are a dying breed. Ever since Rj decided to release updates, we are all in effect BETA TESTERS. You mentioned that your 'job' is to weed out bad ideas well that is what you denied doing, because by 'weeding out' bad ideas your dismissing ideas YOU think are bad. Now enough about you and back to the topic at hand. Mordor already has seven Nazguls, a black Numenorean and two Orc leaders. The MotE on the other hand only has two wizards, three human leaders and two Nazguls. The MotE would desperatly need a Pirate king of Umbar for a full house. Then moving Dwar of waw and Ulvatha the Horseman to the MotE as seven Nazguls are still a force to be reckoned with and dividing a force is ineffect weakening it. You mentioned liking the Nazguls leading the MotE, then you'd atleast agree with dividing them as both Dwar and Ulvatha are kings of the East. Cheers