882 replies to this topic

[Myrdin]

wait a sec. . . . .

what about this : instead of either the wizards tower, nor the industry upgrade which was mentioned up, Isengard could have more unique fortress upgrade :

Forgotten Library

this would grant saruman 50% bonus stats, increased AoE of a berserker, and buffed all powers ( for example, his wizard blast deals 500 magic dmg, after upgraded, it would deal 650, ), with bonus dmg ( exp, and duration, in case of the two non combat powers ), and faster coldown rate.

it would be 2500 fortress upgrade ( as all F. Ups that do dmg in some way ), Saruman would get stronger ( but not too much, mostly, casting rate incresead, some dmg, increased AoE, and around 1000 hp bonus ). And you can even find this in the LoTR lore, if you cower one eye ( remeber, he had tower full of books and tomes, when he was reading about balrog, from some ancient book, that could be considered, as part of the " Forgotten Library " )

[Funbomb]

About Saruman's level 10 power, I don't want it to be fortress destroyer. I would have it as like Gandalf's word of power as an army killer or it can kill buildings and do little damage to units. It would destroy all buildings except the fortress but it can do like 1/4 damage to fortress or w/e amount of damage.

As for your idea Myrdin, I like the idea but it could be to 2000-2500 since its worth 12pp points because Gondor has that for most of their heroes. You could also make it affect other heroes too but you would have to change the name or you could figure a way out. If this power was to be implemented, I would want it as a regular upgrade because it would make sense that you wouldn't need to upgrade walls to get a room of books. If you do have that as the upgrade after the wall upgrade you should let their be a spell the fortress can cast since there must be a spell in one of those books especially if they have to do with magical creatures.

[Myrdin]

i like the idea of yours, that it would affect all heroes.

though i thought, it would be just saruman buff.

but i would love the " Heroes of Gondor " Isengard wariant ( like ) " Leader of the White hand ". it would be nice p. power worht of buyng ( at least i would try to buy it ).
but i got to ask - WHAT exactly does Heroes fo Gondor do ? and i dont mean just reskinning now. its not worth to buy power that just reskins hero ( i say this, coz i newer saw any diference, in strenght nor powers coldown, after buying it )

Hmm if the library thing i suggested would be changed to palantir power ( start of my post ), then what about a fortress add on that would allow you buy some special unit ( i wont start again with that Awatar thing of my, for it got small respond ), maybe a second hero horde ( if the DBS are going to be changed to Orthanc Guard ), like

Uruk Hunting troop
quick, ranged uruks wielding long curved bows. Can fire bloody arrows.
hp 700 ( just 700, explained at the upgrades )
dmg ( hero, ranged )
horde size 5
max. 1 horde, capable to combine with second hero horde squad ( either DBS, or the Orthanc Guard, if they ll be done )
upgrades : heavy armor, fire arrows ( they have weak hp, but can benefit from heavy armor upgrade to get more endurance, and fire arrows, to increase their dmg )
abilities : Bloody Arrows ( lvl 2 ability ) - cripples target enemy hero for 15 seconds ( weaker wariant of Lurzt cirpple ) and deals awarage dmg.
Hunting instincts ( lvl 7 ability ) - Uruk Hunting troop recieves permanent bonus to dmg ( 20% ), and range + wission ( dunno how is range subscribed, but the bonus would give them like + 1/3 of their current range, and wission increased by 120 ( if thats enough ), soo they can make use of they long range )

the name could be Uruk hai Hunters, or Blood Bows.


btw, i like the idea of sarumans 10, power " Building killer " like ability , that would be equivalent of word of power, but instead of units it would deal the tons of dmg to buildings ( and just 1/4 to fortress ). With one spell raped down half of base, sounds mighty

Edited by Myrdin, 02 April 2008 - 08:39 PM.

[Scryer]

I would rather have Saruman's level 10 power as a unit destroyer as well and I would be allright if the damage to buildings was minor. I think that the lightning power that is used as a unit killer would make Saruman more equal (in power) to the other wizards.

Now, I like the idea that added onto my idea of the fortress upgrade. The only reason that I disagree with the Library idea is because there are already several powers like that in the game. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea, it's just that I think we already have several powers like it. Talk about repeating myself....

[Myrdin]

hmm if i remeber right, its just Heroes of Gondor, and elfs have something like that too, but no evil race does. Dont you think it would suit Isen best ? for theyre heroes are the weakest of all races ( no flying, nor 5000 late game ).

but we might stay by the original idea of yours, with my little addon to it - that Great Industry thing ( cheaper prices for that that and that for one minute )

[Scryer]

hmm if i remeber right, its just Heroes of Gondor, and elfs have something like that too, but no evil race does. Dont you think it would suit Isen best ? for theyre heroes are the weakest of all races ( no flying, nor 5000 late game ).

but we might stay by the original idea of yours, with my little addon to it - that Great Industry thing ( cheaper prices for that that and that for one minute )

Sorry about my previous post - I didn't read what your last post was about Myrdin. I got distracted and it took me 20 mins to finish the post.

Anyways, I am beginning to like the idea about increasing the stats for all of Isengard's heroes. It covers one of Isengard's weaknesses, temporarily. I'm sure that the more I think on it, the more I would like the idea of having a tier 2 fortress upgrade increase the stats of all of the heroes. If this wouldn't work, then our idea of a "Great Industry" (I/we should think of a better name to call it...) fortress power could fill that slot.

I still say that Saruman's level 10 power should be more of a unit killer. I have no solid reason to support this other than the fact that I view Saruman as being more damaging towards his enemies rather than their buildings. Other than that, so long as Saruman's level 10 power is buffed up, I would be satisfied either way.

Now for the hero horde - I don't want more than one hero horde for a single faction. I pretty much dispise the fact that hero hordes are even in the game! I do like your idea for their powers, I just want one horde...

Okay, I hate to shift the topic so instantly but I think that the 25pp "Dragon-summoning" power should change because I don't think it suits Isengard at all!! Dragons and wild animals (in my opinion) only fit in the "Goblins" faction for me. Now, if I didn't reommend the "Great Industry" power as a fortress power, then I would have recommended it as a replacement for the 25pp "Dragon" power.... But if somebody wants to come up with something new, then be my guest!

Also some of the other powers don't seem like they'd fit Isengard as well.....

Edited by Scryer, 03 April 2008 - 05:49 AM.

[Myrdin]

i agree with the dragon thing, though i was more thinking about Dragon Strike power, then the summoning.

I dont think Great Industry would be good for 25 pp, for i always support the idea that - 25 pp, powers should be either some huge dmg dealing powers, or summs of some powerfull beast or occasian ( sand tornado for MoTE )

becouse for me the ulti powers are something that has to have " edge " many times i survived, just by using ( for example ) Rain of fire, which wiped out enemys army, and we both started with nothing

[Scryer]

i agree with the dragon thing, though i was more thinking about Dragon Strike power, then the summoning.

I dont think Great Industry would be good for 25 pp, for i always support the idea that - 25 pp, powers should be either some huge dmg dealing powers, or summs of some powerfull beast or occasian ( sand tornado for MoTE )

becouse for me the ulti powers are something that has to have " edge " many times i survived, just by using ( for example ) Rain of fire, which wiped out enemys army, and we both started with nothing

True, I do enjoy thinking that I have a dragon as a back-up if my assault goes wrong. But I still thinkt that a 25pp Dragon Summoning power does not suit Isengard. I hardly think that the 25pp Dragon Strike power suits Isengard as well. The way I see it, we could implement your idea of "Saruman's Library" (the idea that says it buffs up all of Isengard's heroes) as a 25pp power. But I don't think it would work out....

What about a Tsunami or a really huge flash flood? I know, this idea sounds stolen from the Elves, but I'm really getting this idea from Isengard being flooded. Instead of this power being like the Elve's power, it would damage all units (even Isengard's units). This power would be more of a unit killer than anything. Therefore, it would do moderate damage to buildings. Basically, my idea is that this power would be a "Slate-Wipe" in a sense that it would be the Isengard player's last resort if they're about to lose the game. Of course this power wouldn't effect Ents at all (or do minor damage to them). Here's my idea, what do you guys think?

[Devon]

Ok, my thoughts on this are:

First off, Saruman's lvl 10 power. I think it should have less area and damage then word of power, but you can target it anywhere visible so saruman doesn't have to be in the middle of enemies like gandalf does. This could also work so that when he's garrisoned on wizard tower, the range and power increases.

Next, lvl 25 pp power. Imo, this should be avalanche(sp?). Saruman brought caradhras down on the fellowship.

Then, final fortress pp. I think this should still be wizard tower, but if you wanted something else we could call in the white hand or something. It would buff Saruman's spells, greatly increase his leadership, and also give him a passive leadership to nearby furnaces that make them produce like 50% faster or 100% higher or something like that.

[Myrdin]

hmm i like the idea of the power you suggesting, ( the lesser, but " anywhere targatable " magic explosion ), sounds really " Istari like " and at the same time it isnt just some cheap copy of gandalf WoP.

i have thought too of the Caradrass and the awalanche, but its would be just stealing from Angmar, but i like the idea of the Isengard flood too ( but it should do HUGE dmg to building, if itll kill yours units too, as compensation, remember it crushed everything in Isengard ).

but i got another idea - Isengard had many pits, and holes, rifts and deep cawerns, where the uruks were breed, and the whole industry took place. soo here s the idea

Originally take from Earthqueake ( sp? srry ), could be called like Falling Ground, or Dar pits, or something, it would have same area as Earthq. same dmg, but the animation would be like - ( before casting ) normal ground, everything seems ok, ( casting ) the ground starts to shake ( like by Earthq. ), ( casted ) but instead of small curved cracks, there will be deep holes, pits, and such things - ( animation ), and everything would fall in them ( only enemies )

though i dont know if its even animatable.

the second power 25pp, should be some summoning thing - ( maybe that idea of mine-ring hero i suggested ), it should be something that deals high dmg, against everything ( dragon, balrog, shade of wolf - strong vs buildings, heroes, units ), It could be combination of dragon and Balrog - good AoE, and some spells ( 2 or 3 ) awarage speed ( not quick as shade, but quicker then balrog ), well if pallando can summon Rock Golem, then why couldnt Isen summon giant iron construct with two swords.

btw, the fortress, i though that Isen. will be the race that will recieve one additional fortress upgrade, if ya, then the W. Tower could remain, and the second could be something we proposed here ( i dont dislike the idea of yoda, that buffed Saruman,but if he should be a ring hero too, and recieve buffs, ( though stronger ones ) its kinda the " same ), BUT if it would affect all heroes of Iseng ( and they need it, as i wrote in the last post, some evil wariation of Heroes of Gondor, maybe
" Leaders of White hands ", soo they all get 1000hp bonus, some dmg, some armor, and maybe their mostly used abilties buffed ( Saruman - wizard blast, fireball (dmg), Lurtz - carnage, cripple arrow (timer shortened), Grimma - he could become cheaper, coz he sux too much for the price he s right now, Ugluk - no abilities yet, but if at least 3, then one of them would get stronger , Sharku - Taim wargs ( or whats the name ) longer duration, Man eater ( stronger )

[dojob]

I never liked the Idea of an Isengard dragon, since Mordor and the Goblins are the ones with monsters. Avalanche sounds good and so would something like a big explosion, a mine summon, or perhaps something that fully-upgraded all units in the target area (and gave them a temporary buff like warchant but better).

[Scryer]

I never liked the Idea of an Isengard dragon, since Mordor and the Goblins are the ones with monsters. Avalanche sounds good and so would something like a big explosion, a mine summon, or perhaps something that fully-upgraded all units in the target area (and gave them a temporary buff like warchant but better).

Ya, I would kill to see a level 25pp power that allowed you to summon 10 mines in one area.

Regarding the "Saruman's Tower" idea: I like it. Something like it was mentioned before and I excercised my opinion on it. For me it's either this idea or the ideas that Myrdin, Funbomb, and I had suggested. I do like playing Isengard as a faction that gathers some of its power from its fortress because no other faction (or so I think) collects any of its power from the fortress.

For Saruman's level 10 power, I think that it should just be a lightning strike equivalent to ROTWK-Isengard's fortress upgrade. No damage would be added to it unless they decide to add in a couple of more bolts. Here's the way that I see Saruman with the tower.

Saruman on the Tower:
-If the Wizard's tower was impelmented, then I think that his level 10 power should have unlimited range.
-His leadership could turn into a leadership for nearby Furnaces and not units.
-I don't know what would become of his Wizard's Blast and his Fireball spells, but they could have their ranges lowered when he's mounted on the tower. Which would make sense. The same would go for his unit-converting power.
-His defence would be boosted up and so would his vision as well as his health.
-If the tower was destroyed, Saruman would be killed.

Saruman on Foot:
-His level 10 power would have a limited range. But it's range would be pretty damn good.
-His leadership would only affect units.
-Wizard Blast, Fireball, and his unit-converting power (forget the name) would be normal.
-His defence, vision, and health would return to normal.

*This is only what I see what could happen with Saruman and the Wizard's Tower upgrade.*

I thought that my Tsunami power would be too strong if it was strong against anything, but compared to the balrog I have changed my mind.

The Elves and Rohan aren't getting any huge summons (like balrogs) so I don't think that Isengard needs one as well. My reason for this would be because I don't think that any huge/wild creature would fit into Isengard (as a faction) unless it came from Isengard. Also, it's only those Good factions that don't have something huge to summon, therefore, if Isengard was the same way it might balance things out a bit more.

Now, I believe that there might be some lore for the Iron Giants that you suggested, Myrdin? If there is any lore with it, I would still disagree because I don't think that it suits Isengard as a summon. Tolkien lore is so interpretive.... Which is why I'm going to stick by my Super Tsunami idea. I would like to name it either Aqueous Disestablishment or Doused Redemption. Anyways, I just do not like the Iron Giants -they seem like they would stray away from the Middle-Earth lore.

What about the other 25pp power.... If enough of us feel that Isengard shouldnt have powers that involve wild units, then should we replace the dragon-strike power with something else.

Edited by Scryer, 04 April 2008 - 05:33 AM.

[Myrdin]

hmm you inspired me with the summon mines, power . . . . thas it - 25pp dmg power for Isen

animation - summons a huge ( HUGE ) mine, and a berserker that fires it up ( unkilable, its just the animation, like by rain of fire, when the rocks fall down ) - resultes into POWERFULL explosion, killing ANY unit, dealing brutal dmg to heroes, and raizing down every building in the area ( the hp of fortress will fall to 1/3 ). This would be damn powerfull ability with decent aray of efect, it would deal the high dmg to fortress too ( normal mine, is ultimate siege weapon, that can bring donw any fortress, but it would be OP even for 25pp to take down it in one shot ), but it will do friendly fire, soo you need to be damn carefull and micro good with your units, coz you could loose everything, if you would kill them togather with enemies.

for the Construct of mine, yeh Scryer, you were right there is a lore about it, i saw it like 3 or more weeks ago, but i got problems to find it now. I will edit this as soon as i find it.
though it wasnt speaking about ISENGARD construct, it was speaking about unliving creatures, living armor, imbued with the powers of dead evil sprits ( Sauron, should be the one who created them ). Soo this could be Sarumans wariant ( after all he WAS one of the istary ), his own huge construct, living armor, full black, with white hand on his back, wielding two crude loong swords ( one in each hand )

stats :
first of all DURATION of the summon - around 40 seconds ( all other elite last longer, but i explaing this short time period )
name : Awatar of Isengard
( lore mentioned up, and i will try to add the correct link too )
hp: 7500 ( less than sauron, and even balrog cann be killed, same with dragon, or shade of the wolf, soo this guys is awarage )
dmg ( Siege, Magic, Hero, ) dmg would be like shade of the wolf ( balrog take like two hits, shade needs 5 or 6 to crush lvl 3 building ), but coz of the two swords he would combo attack ( kinda like karsh ), first striking with one sword, then with other ( soo he would do in one attack, two dmg after each other, damn its hard to explain, i hope you get it ) AoE of course
speed : Awarage ( like normal foot soldier, soo not soo slow like balrog, nor soo quick as shade )
high armour rate ( for he is living armor himself )
abilities :
Crimson strike - he puts both of his swords togather, lifts them up his head ( they will glow dark red like forged blades ) and strikes the ground, sending a masssive shockwave, that deals terrible dmg in the line it was sent forth ( runs directly forward in a line ) long ranged
Penetrate ground ( he sticks the sword in the ground which creates a weak earthquake, around him, dealeng medium dmg, to units knoback, wery little dmg to buildings )
Dark rage - he gets armor and dmg bonus ( dmg 150% ) wariation of the ignitation that has balrog ( though he has it stronger ), makes a nazghul like shadow to shot from his body and letting him glow dark
Explosive grave - if he is KILLED he explodes, dealing hevy dmg to units and structures around him ( around 500 for both )

well thats the idea, his abilities would reload soo , that he is able to use them twice while summoned ( Crimson strike only one )

i try to find the correct lore, till then thumbs up

Edited by Myrdin, 04 April 2008 - 02:36 PM.

[Uruk King]

Intresting, I don't recall a sixth Istari member, but still the idea rocks.

[Myrdin]

but i wasnt speaking about sixth istary, you propably misread, i meant that Saruman is Istari, and they were maybe a little bit weaker then Sauron, soo Saruman could create his construct too, for he had enough power to do so
but still, thx

soo here is the Sauron, construct wersion

Castellan
Animated metal construct

When Sauron dwelt at Dol Guldur as the Necromancer prior to the Battle of the Five Armies, he summoned to him not only countless minions of orcs, wolves and men to his bidding but also a number of dreadful spirits. These restless souls were those of whom that contained such hate and evil in life that they lingered on even in death, hating the living yet fearing the taste of death more. Their willfull devotion to the Dark Lord came at a price, for Sauron enslaved each of these apparitions into great suits of twisted and harrowing armour, donning the visage of his once terrible form at the field of Dagorlad during the War of the Last Alliance. They would become Dol Guldur's sleepless sentries, forever alert for any approaching danger that might harm the Tower or its Lord. They were given the name Castellans, as that was their purpose, they were not unlike the Watchers of Cirith Ungol and Minas Morgul. During the assault of Dol Guldur by the White Council, almost all of the Castellans were banished by the powerful magic of the elves, but only for so long. After the reemergence of Sauron at Mordor and the return of the shadow in Mirkwood, the once lifeless and corroding armour of the Castellans stirred once more, reanimated by the Black Easterling Khamul to do his bidding in the name of the Dark Lord. They now stand ready at the gates of that cursed citadel, awaiting their masters' will.

http://www.rhovanion...es/guldur_u.php

its from the Rhovanion alliance, where i read about this, but unlike we here, they made the living construct idea to real unit ( my was first ring hero suggestion, but it could be good 25pp Isengard summon, i tossed there link on youtube, where was a unit that could be used for the scetches - i myself could do the artwork, but it ll take time )

The point is, i believe guys from R.Alliance, created this unit on some " lore ", and didnt just think it from nothing, soo i think if there is such a lore, then my Isengard Awatar idea, is not that much of my own creation ( well its my of cousre, but i mean, that it now has roots based on tolkien, and not just my imagination )

soo if you red the post before, where i described him precisely, and now you readed this, that there WERE constructs, its propably good time to rethink my Awatar.

just to make the things clear, i dont copy the idea of Castellans, i use them as EXAMPLE, to point on th LORE, for my own idea, for this is the only lore i was able to find in short time

Edited by Myrdin, 04 April 2008 - 02:40 PM.

[Uruk King]

So this character of yours is a creation by Saruman's magic.

[Myrdin]

Exactly, the whole post before, was to show, that there were such " creuters " already done once ( by Sauron )
and since Saruman as one of the Istari has nice power too, then eventually he could create an ultimate construct himself ( Saruman was wery cunning, as we all know heh after all he created Uruk Hai, who are supposed to be the stronger than normal Uruks - black uruks, Saurons creation.

Soo after i saw that topic at Rhowanion alliance, i understood, that there could be such " forged beiing ".

ill try to scetch, how he could look, i finally got the digital camera soo i can post the artworks for my MotE Sorcerrer Pedestal, after i paint crude wersion of the Awatar of Isengard, i try to upload it ( though it wont be any time soon )

the wision i got in ma head is something like this, whole black, not burning, two swords, looking like living armor ( which it is )
this beeing here looks pretty close to my imagination :

[Scryer]

There is one thing that I'm not clear on - where would the construct fit? If he was added into the game, would be a 25pp power or a hero horde? I like our ideas for the 25 pp powers but I also like the hero horde being an uruk.

If it was added in (I am still against it), I don't think that there would be any room for them in the faction.

[Myrdin]

Scyer, though i like your ideas, and i gladly chat with you, this time im a bit " by the way ". I kinda dont understand your last post. If you could be more corect

as for myself, to prevent another misunderstanding :

Awatar of Isengard - 25 Palantir Power ( ONLY ), summoning power, limited duration, pure Isengardish summon

Additional fortress upgrade, No name yet ( maybe hunting pits, or something ) - allows the training of 1 ( and only ) additional hero horde - Uruk hunting troop ( not sure with the name )


this were the things, we spoke in the few last posts, soo i think you meaned this. There are detail descriptions in older posts, for both of these things ( awatar, hunting group )

it s a bit confusing, becouse we discuised Fortress matter ( upgrades, elite, + additional upgrade ), and at the same time 25 pp powers, soo you maybe just got it mixed.

[Scryer]

Scyer, though i like your ideas, and i gladly chat with you, this time im a bit " by the way ". I kinda dont understand your last post. If you could be more corect

as for myself, to prevent another misunderstanding :

Awatar of Isengard - 25 Palantir Power ( ONLY ), summoning power, limited duration, pure Isengardish summon

Additional fortress upgrade, No name yet ( maybe hunting pits, or something ) - allows the training of 1 ( and only ) additional hero horde - Uruk hunting troop ( not sure with the name )


this were the things, we spoke in the few last posts, soo i think you meaned this. There are detail descriptions in older posts, for both of these things ( awatar, hunting group )

it s a bit confusing, becouse we discuised Fortress matter ( upgrades, elite, + additional upgrade ), and at the same time 25 pp powers, soo you maybe just got it mixed.

Yes, I just got confused. I'm a simple person when it comes to these things , I need to make a list for myself on a word document lol. Thanks for clearing that up!

So we now have three 25pp powers that we are discussing...... Which one should go? I'm leaning towards the Awatar idea only because I think that it would stray away from the Middle-Earth lore but it is Middle-Earth lore.... See, because I never read anything about any Awatar in the books (this includes the Hobbit and the Silmarillion) it gets hard for me to really imagine this idea actually taking place in Middle-Earth. Which is why I had trouble imagining the Rock Giant actually existing when they discussed giving one of the Blue Wizard's the power to summon him... The problem with Middle-Earth lore is that it's so broad and so interpretive and there are so many different versions....

Regarding the mine power, I was also thinking that they could work without a bezerker uruk-hai lighting them right away. For me, this would add strategy because you choose when you want to light the mines up. To be honest, I would be fine if they either exploded right away or if you had to light them up after you summoned the mines.

Edited by Scryer, 04 April 2008 - 09:56 PM.