882 replies to this topic

[dojob]

For the mine summon, 5 mines in a circle is enough for me and undeployed, so u could move them around and stuff.

[Zyzzyva]

I like the idea of a mine, or multiple mine, summon. Other 25 powers suggested (such as the Great Industry, army for one purpose and the fully upgrade thing) I personally think would really fit isengards structure. The Avatar thing Im open to, but am a little hesitent as I dont really think its part of tolkien lore. Some mods take the necromancer title very seriously, but I personally think tolkien used it a more general "evil sorceror" title.

For a level 25 power that I dont think any other faction has anything like and yet fits Isengard structure, would be a mass summon. One idea I thought of would be a Hunting Uruk Summon (building on Myrdins Idea) This would give you multiple hordes of mordor orcs (i dont know whether morgul or morranon would fit better) as fodder/melee, as well a few hordes of powerful sword/bow toggle urukhai and two or three heros: Ugluk, Lurtz, and maybe Grishnakh. The hunting uruks are built on the powerful urukhai seen in Chapter 3 of the two towers, who defeat rohirrim and other orcs with swords, but also use bows to take down boromir (not crossbows). Perhaps it would be slightly modified versions of the heros, with ugluk having strong leadership and maybe a carnage power, while Lurtz wields a bow (maybe sword toggle) with crippling arrows, and grishnakh might summon northerner orcs or have a spy of the nazgul powerful fear effect. All would be capable fighters but not super strong heros (remember their killers were eomer, boromir, and a random rohirrim/treebeard depending on book or movie) Perhaps this might be toned down as a lvl 15 power to replace another monster summon (i think they have wyrm or watcher at least, which equally dont fit isengard)

[Scryer]

Zy (I am not going to give myself carpeltunnel trying to spell out your full username...) I do like your idea as a 15pp power. I was recently reviewing Isengard's power and I was thinking that I might bring up a point about the Watcher being replaced. I would love to just have a mass group of Uruk scouts being summonable as a 15pp power with a long timer. No heroes though.... I don't have any solid reason to back this up but I honestly think that this idea (as a 15pp power) shouldn't include heroes, just more uruks. By the way, are Uruk Scouts being added in?

On a side note, I don't like the devastation power. Anyone else think the same way? It seems kind of useless to me.... Especially if you're playing on a map with no trees.

Okay, so it sounds to me that we're all in agreement to a mine power. I honestly don't care how it works, so long as it's added in and it's balanced.

For my flood idea, I would willingly give it to the elves because they do need a better 25pp power. Not only that but I think that it suits them better to begin with. For me the "Horse-Flood" power can stay with Arwen. It was sad that EA made the powers identical.

I am all for the idea that temporarily boosts all of your army's stats. We could rename it "Shatterproof" or something like that (Can you tell that I'm a little short on names today?). I don't think that I like it as a passive power because I can see Isengard ripping their opponent's to shreds with this thing.

Yoda, I believe that you were the one who suggested giving the fortress an upgrade that allows Saruman to mount a tower? I mentioned before that Saruman could get his leadership changed (when he mounts the tower) so that he gives out bonuses to Furnaces. Were you thinking of something else? If this idea doesn't work, the team could always consider making a "Great Industry" power instead. The way I see it, if we can't come up with anything creative (that works in the game) to give the player the feeling that 'Isengard is all about its resources', then you could just give the fortress a "Great Industry" power as a last resort.

Edited by Scryer, 05 April 2008 - 06:22 AM.

[Shikari]

on a side note, I don't like the devastation power. Anyone else think the same way? It seems kind of useless to me.... Especially if you're playing on a map with no trees.

Hardly anyone seems to know this, but if you cast devastation on units it stuns them, so that they cannot move for a time period. Incredibly useful for, say when you come up to an enemy gate with a battering ram, as the archers on the wall come into vision, stun them, and then you've got a clear run up to the gate. It doesn't last very long, and it affects all units in the radius (including your own), but its a very useful little trick.

[Myrdin]

i thínk itll be better if they got fired right away, for if you remember - normal mines CAN be killed, without firing them up at the same time ( soo the enemy could easily dispatch of your ELITE power, and you would just waste a power, and your nerves, if the soo awaited explosion wouldnt occour )

and for the rock giant and awatar thing, i would explain it this way - Istary were ( if we follow tolkiens lore ) beings of such great power, that they could be like half gods. And if they had such power, i think there wouldn t be any problem to breath your " will " and " life " into a pile of stones, or crumpled armor, let it move and follow your comands.

[myster]

not even morgoth could creat his own life so. im totally against the idea of an istari being able to ''create'' life.

[Myrdin]

omg . . . .

why do you think i used "" and tiped it - " life "
. . . .
dont make a fool of yourself, and READ how the things are written

of course " life " was allusion, cue, for a rock formation, nor living armor will newer be ALIVE as what the word represents

[dojob]

How would it not be alive if it's animate and running around acknowledging orders and smashing things? Why "breathe life into it" if it's not gonna be alive? Tbh if the avatar of Isengard is in, then we may as well throw in the Avatar of Khaine and tanks, since Saruman did after all have industry/explosives so he COULD'VE gotten like guns and tanks and airplanes, and how about some magical purple beavers while we're at it...

The blue wizards are vague enough to get away with having a rock gollum summon since there isn't enough detail in the books/movies to give them a full list of powers (iirc), but Saruman never summoned an "avatar of isen", and why would he when he had fireballs, lightning, and manipulation? An avatar of Isengard is just excessive...

Edited by dojob, 05 April 2008 - 12:45 PM.

[Myrdin]

Spare your sarcasm, try to pull it on some kid that still suck his tumb.

i dont know where you were the last few days, but if you would pay attention on what was going on HERE, then you would know the we wery talking, about how Saruman could get better, for his ulti sux ( announced by others, i newer thought it really sux ). For you to coming up here, now after we tried to scrap some ideas togather, and act MACHO like, you look more like absolute moron to me.

unlike you " master of universe " im not skilled at modding, nor can i use LOTR map editor, soo posting my ideas is at least some way that i can help. The people here, were trying to put some good ideas togather, than come you and stomp on them, WHO do you think you are ? that you dare to spit on the least we can do ?!! for such as yourself i have only antipathy.

[Devon]

Woah...calm down...and just so you know, dojob can't mod at all either. He thinks, and I agree with him, that the avatar of isengard doesn't really fit in with the rest of the faction. Just because he could have created doesnt mean he would have, or that it should be in. It just doesn't really fit in with the style of Isengard. And there have been other things suggested to make Saruman better, like the wizard tower thing and furnace leadership.

Now, onto the other suggestions...I think devastation is fine, it's good for about 2-3k on most maps or using it like shikari said to basically cripple a group a group of units or archers while attacking or retreating. I think the watcher can stay, as it fits them better than other's I'd say, but wyrm should go. As I said, Isengard is more about their awesome industry and power of massed units than super summons or heros. Again, I'd say for lvl 25pp a power that buffs all uruks somehow and avalanch. The logic behind Isengard flood seems flawed....it happened because the ends totally ransacked Isengard and just caused a flood to do even more damage. I did suggest wizard tower and saruman's industry leadership...I'd also say the mine summon as a 15pp power to replace wyrm.

And now for heroes...I really think most of Isengard's heroes should be support units that buff up all troops around them...not solo army killers like aragorn and gandalf. Saruman might be the sole exception...but he should still be more valuable on the wizard tower casting spells than on the ground.

[Shinobi.]

And now for heroes...I really think most of Isengard's heroes should be support units that buff up all troops around them...not solo army killers like aragorn and gandalf. Saruman might be the sole exception...but he should still be more valuable on the wizard tower casting spells than on the ground.

Yeh got to agree with that as after all, Lurtz or Wulf were army commanders.

[Scryer]

Woah...calm down...and just so you know, dojob can't mod at all either. He thinks, and I agree with him, that the avatar of isengard doesn't really fit in with the rest of the faction. Just because he could have created doesnt mean he would have, or that it should be in. It just doesn't really fit in with the style of Isengard. And there have been other things suggested to make Saruman better, like the wizard tower thing and furnace leadership.

Now, onto the other suggestions...I think devastation is fine, it's good for about 2-3k on most maps or using it like shikari said to basically cripple a group a group of units or archers while attacking or retreating. I think the watcher can stay, as it fits them better than other's I'd say, but wyrm should go. As I said, Isengard is more about their awesome industry and power of massed units than super summons or heros. Again, I'd say for lvl 25pp a power that buffs all uruks somehow and avalanch. The logic behind Isengard flood seems flawed....it happened because the ends totally ransacked Isengard and just caused a flood to do even more damage. I did suggest wizard tower and saruman's industry leadership...I'd also say the mine summon as a 15pp power to replace wyrm.

And now for heroes...I really think most of Isengard's heroes should be support units that buff up all troops around them...not solo army killers like aragorn and gandalf. Saruman might be the sole exception...but he should still be more valuable on the wizard tower casting spells than on the ground.

I will be honest, my flood idea was really hollow when I suggested it for this faction. I think that you guys could consider making the exact flood power for the Elves? They are missing a good 25pp power. I should be posting this on the Elves thread...

I am also going to have to agree with Yoda about Isengard's heroes. May I suggest that getting the "Wizard's Tower" upgrade would lower the cost of Saruman because that is a lot of resouces used to upgrade your fortress and getting Saruman out. This Tower seems more like a late-game power and that it wouldn't get its full potential used. My reasons being that you have to get the Metal Plating Fortress upgrade (which costs 2000) and then you have to get the tower (which costs 2500), lastly you have to get Saruman (who costs 3000). During that time, I'm sure that a skilled Isengard player can rub-out their opponent before they achieve all of those upgrade plus Saruman.

My mine idea was that the mines were already set on the ground so that all you had to do was light them up with a unit. I believe that I didn't make this clear before. The reason that I like this as a 25pp power is because it could replace the "Dragon Strike" power. I have always thought that Isengard got the most "out-of-character" powers out of all of the factions. Sure, the Dragon Strike power was useful but it really doesn't fit into Isengard..... Well you could say that Isengard was right beside the Misty Mountains (am I right?) and there could've been a dragon but that would just be bending lore to give it what you want . The Mine power could also, very easily, be equivalent to the dragon strike so I think that it would be a fair replacement.

My ideal 25pp powers are:
-The power that buffs all of your units (we've gotta find a good name for this....)
-The Mine power (once again, this lacks a good name )

I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to Isengard being the faction that focuses on its resources. I apologize for being closed-minded about this but I don't see any room for Dragons or Dragon attacks in Isengard's power tree. Which is why I want the Wyrm and the Watcher replaced. They belong to the Goblins.

Anyways, I am going to propose that we use Zy's suggestion of having a power that summons several battalions of Uruk Scouts as a 15pp power to replace the Wyrm. Isengard did do a fair bit of scouting so I think that this power would provide that element to Isengard and it would also be used to harrass your opponent.

[Funbomb]

Sry to say, there shouldn't be avalanche Yoda since when I was watching first movie again (since it was on TV and I was bored) I noticed that avalanche but it was cause by Saruman's Lightning. So it's not really his avalanche but it could fit in I guess. But for background knowledge, it was cause by his lightning.

Nvm, the pic for some reason won't work!!!

Edited by Funbomb, 05 April 2008 - 06:45 PM.

[Devon]

Imo, mines arent good enough for 25pp power...theres a chance most of them will get blown up before they do any damage. I think that and the uruk scouts should be 15 pps replacing wyrm and (maybe) watcher, with avalanche and the uruk buff as 25. And I agree with you about isengard being resource centered. They're all about industry and managing resources.

Edit after funbomb: Still...It's better than having lightning I think. Wizard tower and saruman already have that themselves....Idk, but I think it still fits better than dragon strike did

Edited by YodaWarrior, 05 April 2008 - 06:45 PM.

[Myrdin]

15pp power that could summon like 10 berserkers would be good.

btw, i know Isengard is kinda " industrial " race, but if you want to hold on this then there must be some buffing to their industry side be done.

of all first, i think that Furnances, need to get higher hp, for they are weaker than than any other resource building. Second, according to the industry, they could produce slightly more money then others ( slightly - soo like +5 ), for isengard units are wery expensive.

then i think the fortress add on, that lowers the price of buildings for each fortress upgraded this by 10% should be increased to 15%, for i doubt that you gat chance to build second fortrees, fast none in multiplayer, diferent story with AI.

the lumber mills, needs to lower the price, they cost 650, in BFME2 and ROTWK it was just 400. and they are not worth the 650 resources.

The most USELLES thing at Isengard, is the fortress Mine Launcher - it has wision like catapult, and becouse of that it fires, even though enemies are not in range. But the MOST iritating thing is that it does frienldy fire.
I dont care for it as player, for i dont use this, but i mention this becouse AI tends to build it, and thx to that it DESTROYS its OWN buildings, that are builded near it ( if it RJ map, than its even worser, for you are limited by building place and, this way AI tends to destroy half of its base, and all i do is just stand in the sight soo it keeps firing and firing at its own buildings ) NEEDS to get fixed the friendly fire and line of sight

one thing more - this is just an idea - each building could get upgrade that would allow, the building to purchase 2 uruk pikeman, that would walk around the building guarding it. if they would die they could be purchased again ( this would be wery usefull for if not repeling at least slowing down, furnance rushes, becouse as i said the furnances are have wery low hp )
and there is one bug, of which i was already speaking about some time ago. The Warg Sentry thing ( it kinda suits goblins better, even the model doesnt siut Iseng, and i would replaced it by the guards i proposed, but well, though i still think it siuts Gobs. better ) - the wargs in the cage have too little wission, they cant see enemy if they dont attack the Sentry, or wery close building, and the second thing is THE RELEASE button has been missing, soo you got three wargs, who cant see far ( not even too far ), and even if enemy goes by they wont follow them ( which is the purpose of this building ) and you cant even release them, soo they could follow the enemy.

well thats it

[Funbomb]

I guess so, but I noticed it was the lightning. I do agree about having the uruk summon and mine summon at 15pp and will it come with zerks to light it?

[Myrdin]

well would make sense, coz getting mine, and waiting for zerk, to spam from pit, gives the enemy too much time to dispatch of them

[dojob]

Spare your sarcasm, try to pull it on some kid that still suck his tumb.

i dont know where you were the last few days, but if you would pay attention on what was going on HERE, then you would know the we wery talking, about how Saruman could get better, for his ulti sux ( announced by others, i newer thought it really sux ). For you to coming up here, now after we tried to scrap some ideas togather, and act MACHO like, you look more like absolute moron to me.

unlike you " master of universe " im not skilled at modding, nor can i use LOTR map editor, soo posting my ideas is at least some way that i can help. The people here, were trying to put some good ideas togather, than come you and stomp on them, WHO do you think you are ? that you dare to spit on the least we can do ?!! for such as yourself i have only antipathy.

Tell me when I called myself "master of the universe", ok? And like Yoda said, I can't mod; I'm just a beta tester.

Admitedly, my exaggeration went too far, but that doesn't give you the right to call me names. I've posted ideas, contributed, and given my honest opinion, so could you please be less hostile to me? That's just no way to treat anybody imo, even people you don't like.

I do agree with you that Saruman needs to have a stronger lvl10 power, but like I said, he never used an "avatar of isengard" and i see no reason for him to get that when there are other, more reasonable possibilities like an improved version of his lightning. Perhaps he could summon a storm cloud that could move around in the air and shoot ok-ish lightning bolts at the ground doing good damage (since there would ideally be several bolts, they each shouldn't be too strong); perhaps we could simply buff the power of his current lighting and add stun effects. I'm open to ideas (it doesn't HAVE to be lightning), as long as they're reasonable. I didn't think that your idea was reasonable, so I said so. I'm sorry if my honesty was antagonizing, but I'm not gonna apologize for posting my opinion.



As for the other heroes besides Saruman, Lurtz should be more of a direct combat hero (though not quite an army-killer, just a good fighter and hero-killer) than a support hero, since Ugluk should be the main uruk leader. As for Wulf, yeah he should be a support hero too, but for Dunlendings ofc. As for Grima, he needs a price reduction and should (if he isn't already) be a scout/assassin hero that can be a pain in the ass, but couldn't be relied on to lead armies or fight in direct battle.

As for the PP spells, an uruk scout summon as a 15pp power would be a great idea, especially since it summons a unit you can't get otherwise, which makes it more interesting and important. For 25 pp spells, avalanche would be a good idea, though perhaps there could be a little lightning strike beforehand. That and a big buff of some sort would be good 25pp spells imo

[Scryer]

I knew that I was missing something in my prior post...

Okay, the only reason that I naively ignored the Avalanche idea was that we would need to find a new 25pp power for Angmar. Maybe this would be easier for us?

Regarding the mine power, I'll leave it up to the mods if they want to add a zerker to light up the mines right away or not. I honestly don't care that much about that detail as long as this power is just added in. I could also care less if it's a 15pp or a 25pp power.

I can't imagine Saruman's level 10 power being anything other than a lightning storm equivalent to ROTWK-Isengard's fortress lightning attack. I feel very strongly about this.

I feel that the rest of Isengard's heroes are done perfectly to match their purposes. We have Lurtz who can do a lot of fighting and provides a decent leadership bonus; We have Wulf who leads the wildmen; Sharku who is Isengard's mounted hero and he has pretty decent powers; Grima who can scout and sometimes screw over your opponent's heroes and he can convert units; Ugluk who can buff up the Uruk-hai (I believe that's what his powers were going to be?); And Saruman who's pretty much a combination of all of these heroes with a little extra firepower. Plus if the Wizard's Tower upgrad is implemented, then he'd be a hero that can raise resources. I have no problem with any of these other heroes.

I believe that Lumber Mills do need to have their prices lowered. But I don't think that any of the Furnaces should get more health and armour because if Saruman is churning out a leadership that affects Furnaces (as well as other resource buildings) when he's on the Wizard's Tower (assuming that that will get in) then I believe that the mods would make it so that the Leadership would boost the Furnaces' health and armour as well as resource production.