968 replies to this topic

[Devon]

They are a summon atm, and will most likely stay that way for 1.06

[Scryer]

That would depend on how many units will be in a Khand inn faction. They could be like backup for MotE like South Fiefdoms is for Gondor. Besides, more inn factions are planned iirc.

Well whatever happens, happens. I've presented my opinion.

[Devon]

Obviously not forcefully enough What happened to your arguementative spirit?

[Scryer]

Obviously not forcefully enough What happened to your arguementative spirit?

Hands-down, it died. In other words, I'm not in the mood to argue something a couple of pages back .

Plus I would sound like a broken record. The only thing that would change would be the adjectives. But here I go again, just to please you Yoda .

Still more units (in general) would crowd the game. And eventually it would seem like they were all the same with different reskins. That's the effect that adding any more factions is going to add to the mod. Not only that but a Khand-dedicated faction/Inn-faction/whatever faction gives us an excuse to create the same thing for the Men of Dale and the Corsairs. <They atleast have more lore (Mike correct me here, if I'm wrong ) than what's said about Khand, and even then I wouldn't fully agree to it.

This is something that Zyzzava (<did I spell it right? ) posted a couple of pages back. Sorry for dragging you into this:

I don't know whether this would be a good idea, but I think that Rhun shood be focused on infantry and a few wainrider units, while Harad shood either have their current cavalry with Khand avalaible to both or harad should get Khandish cavalry (seeing as harad and khand fought together against Rhun until they allied against Gondor)

Khand is a back-burner between the 4 groups of Evil Men (the Corsairs, Haradrim, Easterlings, and Variags/Khand). It's even more of a back-burner than the Corsairs are because not a lot is said about them. I would be much more willing to go along with the idea of giving the Corsairs of Umbar a seperate faction because they actually have the Lore to go somewhere with. With Khand, we hardly get any information from them in the books. And in the end, most of their units/heroes would be guesses. If they posed more of an importance in the WOTR/Bilbo's Adventure era, they would have been mentioned more.

Now for gameplay, adding more Khandian units (in general) would probably give you the same problem that Mordor has with all of their orcs. The units would start to lack purpose. Like I've mentioned before, they'd become simple cookie-cutters as well. It would also crowd the mod with too many Khandian units.

I mentioned something about the Inn system (which sounded like I was bashing it... which I wasn't for those of you wondering! ); Well my beef with that is that if you guys add factions into there like crazy it would give the player the "here's some extra units that we wanted to add but truly had no purpose to get in properly" or "here's everyone else in-a-nut-shell" feeling as oppose to building a different variety of units. I think that adding in factions for the fun of it (to the Inn) is just a dumb idea to begin with. I always saw the Inn as a possible gameplay advantage, not a "Lore-thing-in-a-nutshell". If the Inn was intended to be more for gameplay (Rob, could I get you to clear this up?) then I think that adding in more Inn factions is just getting carried away.

My suggestion is just to keep it simple. A maximum of 2 Khandian units is all MOTE needs to do them justice. Because little is mentioned about them (Mike's gonna murder for saying this... I'm already watching my back ) I think that we can get away with having a very small amount of Khandian units. Otherwise I think that if there's going to be a lot of guess-work involved and if you guys are going to have to base a Khand faction off of another faction, you're messing with the Lore too much. Which is also why I don't want to see a Khand hero either...

I think that adding a Khandian Mounted Archer and another unit (I'm almost thinking another mounted unit.... Or a unit with a toggle?) would cover something that Rhun and Harad don't have. It would also strengthen their originality and eliminate the cookie-cutter effect if you guys altered their stats. This would keep the Inn relatively 'clean' (I use that word loosely) as well as the MOTE faction in general. Not only that but I think that it would give Khand more flexibility in the campaign. <I will elaborate on this later. And lastly, Khand would make an appearance into the game.

For me, I think that Khandian units could give a similar effect that the Daleian (wow, i used two made-up words in one sentence...) have on the Dwarves.

Edited by Scryer, 12 July 2008 - 04:03 AM.

[Devon]

See? Much better. Much for forceful arguements Unfortunatly, mike is gone until either sunday or tuesday, so I've been silently consolidating my...uh, I mean, he's not here to correct you

But, as I said, atm they're only a summon, and will likely remain as such for the next public beta.

Edit: Ooooh...midnight post!

Edited by YodaWarrior, 12 July 2008 - 04:01 AM.

[Scryer]

See? Much better. Much for forceful arguements Unfortunatly, mike is gone until either sunday or tuesday, so I've been silently consolidating my...uh, I mean, he's not here to correct you

But, as I said, atm they're only a summon, and will likely remain as such for the next public beta.

Edit: Ooooh...midnight post!

Hahaha, guess I was in the mood after all.

Yeah I know that they're a summon power (which I definitely support!) so I didn't mention that aspect at all. I didn't mention anything about their current models (I think I saw a screenshot a while ago?) because I pretty much agree with those character models.

Mike! Oh no! Where's our encyclopedia when we're too lazy to search things up ourselves ?

So ya, there's my Khand-rant for the day guys! I look forward to some hardcore squabbling now that I'm off work !!

[{IP}jimmyman]

i will have to agree, no point in coming up with something longer than that (if its even possible)

[Scryer]

I said that I would elaborate on the possibility of Khand being in the campaign. So here I go again...

What I mean't by what I said in my long post is that if you have a full faction dedicated to Khand, they are not going to have a lot of missions. I believe that before in this thread (or maybe another one) someone from the team mentioned that Harad would have missions in the Southern Fiefodms and a Rhun army would have most of its missions around Rhun. With those areas being covered (in the LWM campaign), I don't see where a Khand army would fit in unless they were random reinforcements. And this faction even has some flexibility to be in either region because it was supposedly located inbetween Rhun and Harad. But I don't think that the team would give us a Khandian army to begin with in the LWM campaign...

Not only that but I think that you can only have a limited number of armies in maps before you get a game.dat, so a whole new crowding issue comes into play as well. Besides, if you give an Easterling army a couple of Khandian units and a Haradrim Army a couple more, you'd have quite a few Khandian units if you had both of the armies on a map at once. I'm thinking about MT (once again) when I say this.

[mike_]

Something I put thought to a while back...expanding the Corsair Tavern to include several of the 'lesser' Evil Men units. By that I mean the Mahud of Far Harad and the Variags of Khand.
You would initially have these units:
-Corsair Fighters. Semi-spammable (hehe, Firefox says 'flammable' ) units upgradeable with heavy armour.
-Corsair Ballista. Light, short-ranged siege weapon. More useful against units than structures.
-Khandish Mercenaries. Wield axes. Axes, I say! Anyway, yes, would be more-or-less shock troops that have an AoE in combat.
-Khand Raiders. Mounted units. Toggle from bow to axe, can fire while moving. Extremely lightly armoured.
-Mahud Warriors. Heavy close-combat guys.
-Mahud Champions. Equivalent of a MHH stats-wise. Possibly used as hero-killers.

So, with these guys in the Tavern (which I'd like to see renamed to the 'Trading Post' ) you'd have it as such; depending on which sub-faction you chose at the start of the battle, either the Men of Khand (for Rhun) or the Mahud (for Harad) would get the faction-aligned price decrease.

EDIT: Yoda and I have worked on a rough draft for the beginnings of an Evil Campaign in Harad, Scryer. I may post it up soon-ish..

Edited by mike_, 13 July 2008 - 06:28 PM.

[shadowcreature]

I like those ideas. It would fill up the Tavern much more. Would the regular Corsairs and Brigands be moved to level 2?

[mike_]

Dunno..it'd probably be a good idea though.

[{IP}jimmyman]

atm, i'd say turn the Khandish Mercenaries into Khandish tribesmen, as they had many tribes in Khand which were allied with Sauron, low health and armor but good attack with that AOE you talked about, ALSO the Raiders could be renamed Variags, as the Variags were the supreme horsemen of the land, rivalling that of rohan. I also like the trading post idea nice name

[mike_]

Erm...
'Variag' was another name for the Men of Khand (Rohirrim for the Men of Rohan, Gondorians for the Men of Gondor, you get it). It is said that they were the closest Mannish rivals to the Rohirrim in terms of horsemanship, yes. Which is why I suggested that cavalry unit.
As for tribes...dunno. That's more like the Haradrim than the Variags of the East.

[Dalf32]

both harad and rhun have a tavern building correct? so couldnt we put mahud in the harad one only (and give them the discount of course) and put the variags (if taht is in fact the correct term *glances at mike*) in the rhun version of the tavern. this way it would avoid the clutter but it would still allow people access to all of them. im suggesting this because 6 units feels like an awful lot for one building.
also in favor of a name change though.

[mike_]

Well... /looks at the Orc and Uruk Pits

[{IP}jimmyman]

ah ive gotten the wrong information then, sorry bout that

[Fyro11]

As much as we all like the idea of one faction, I think if these units were to be added (which I personally believe to be an excellent addition) then I would argue that splitting the two facs would be the best direction to go, as each fac has enough units to be self-sufficient.

Yes, I know: good to have me back.

[dojob]

But what exactly would make Rhun unique and special? Now I don't play the Evil Men faction once, but Rhun doesn't seem to have any special characteristics that would make them unique and interesting as an individual faction.

[Allathar]

The sorcerers and wain-riders are quite unique, imo.

[dojob]

Angmar has sorcerers and the Dwarves have battle wagons which are pretty much the same...

Their overall style is nothing unique; Mordor has orc spam with troll/nazgul support, Dwarves have tough infantry and heavy defenses, Elves have stealthy archers and lots of magics/heroes, but Rhun doesn't seem to have any sort of unique overall characteristic imo.

Edited by dojob, 14 July 2008 - 07:42 PM.