231 replies to this topic

[The Best Guest]

But half-orcs would be sick in this mod

[Allathar]

Just a question for you Naz: have you read the books?

[Nazgûl]

Yes I have... but I don't know if it counts...
You see:
- Read them like 15 years ago...
- Read them in Swedish...
- Have a terribly bad memory...

Don't forget this is a movie mod. In the books the troops of Isengard consist mainly of Dunlendings, Gobbo's from the Misty Mountains, and half-orcs with the Uruk-Hai only forming the über-elite-pwnage-superior - well you get the point, but in the books the Uruks were limited in numbers, Saruman got only about a few hundred of them. Sarumans army in Bree-land and the Shire contained half-orcs, spies, and other bad thugs.

In the movies however, it's all Uruk, Uruk, Uruk, except early on where Saruman uses Orcs and Goblins from the Misty Mountains and some hordes of Dunlendings to burn down unprotected Rohan villages. After that, all that is used are Uruk-Hai (including the ten thousand he unleashed on Helm's Deep) with only a few Misty Mountain orcs and goblins to protect Isengard. No half-orcs whatsoever, which is strange, considering in the books the main part of the army were half-orcs.

To get to the point, in the books the Uruks are waaaaay stronger than in the movies, but also very limited in numbers. In the movies, the Uruks are still the superior bad-asses, but not as strong as described in the books and above all heavily numbered.

Like Naz said: Uruks > men > orcs > gobbo's

So, if we would be true to the lore:
1: Spamming Misty Mountain orcs & gobbo's
2: Using Dunlendings to burn down some resource buildings
3: Half-orcs, common soldiers which are outnumbering the good forces, but not that much
4: Limited Uruk-Hai that pwn all

But, this is a movie mod, so:
1: Spamming Misty Mountain gobbo's and using limited hordes of Dunlendings to burn resource buildings
2: Using Uruk Raiders as common soldier, good speed
3: Using regular Uruks as strongest regular soldier (so they pwn all other regular solds), good numbered but expensive
4: Uruk-Hai berserkers and Uruks of Orthanc as THE ELITE

- Word!

[Garrison Nomad]

Isengard orcs....yes, sounds good to me. Have to find a way to distinguish them from orcs and goblins....but i guess naz said he was going to use the original orc skins for them. that'd be cool.

[Allathar]

It'd be cool indeed to have half-orcs - after all they were the 'prototype' of the fighting Uruk-Hai, a cross-bred of Men and Orcs, and were the main part of Isengards army in the lore (Saruman just messed around with the orcs and created many different types, until he perfected them as 'Uruk-Hai'). But since there aren't any half-orcs in the movies I'll understand if Naz doesn't use them.

So that'll make Isengard use four different breeds of orc (if everything gets implented):
- Misty Mountain Goblins
- Misty Mountain Orcs
- Half-Orcs
- Da Fighting Uruk-Hai

Edited by Allathar, 27 July 2007 - 03:46 PM.

[Nazgûl]

IF I do Orcs for Isen... (I rather not go against Sûl, but I might, hehe)... it will only be ONE race, not several. Isengard will stay "all about Uruks", but I just think they would fit in as an easy weak, but cheap addition. Sorta like "peasants"...

[Strider]

Is it just me or is anyone else getting the vibe we are making Isengard too strong? The Dunlders seem to be the bets early game units(stealing resources and all), regular Uruks beat all other regular soldiers, and Isengarder eilite beat every other elites. Not to Mention Lurtz is one of the most well rounded heros in the game. Does Isengard have any weak point? Calvary I guess, but they can live without that, Mordor and Dwarves do.

[Nazgûl]

Maybe, but they are in no means invincible =)
All is not fair in ME

[clonecommand]

Not at all. I'm getting quite the resistence vs hard MotW right no. Its very fun. They were winning...for a couple seconds (muhahahahahahahaha)

[Smeagolfan24]

I understand that this is a movie mod, but one thing must be set straight if you're really going for "realism:" You all seem to think that because the Uruk raiders are the weakest of the Uruk-hai, mainly (I assume) because of the fact that they were the first made by Saruman.

Really (and WETA agrees), the Uruk raiders sent out to capture/destroy the Fellowship were the strongest that Saruman made. He had had the time to refine his creation for weeks, then train them more and more knowledge of warfare. The Uruks that were made later on to create his army of 10,000 was rushed, quickly made to destroy Rohan as soon as possible. They were highly inferior to their former counterparts becuase Saruman didn't have the time to teach them the finer details of warfare, only how to be an effective army.

I highly suggest that you made the raiders at least better than the Uruk soldiers.

[Biermann]

Just a question: aren't the uruk hai half orcs already?

[Smeagolfan24]

Here's some descriptions:

The great soldier-Orcs that first appeared in the late Third Age; they were larger and stronger than their forebears, and could withstand the light of the Sun.

In Appendix A (iv) of The Lord of the Rings, in the section recounting the history of the Stewards, we find an account of the first appearance of the uruks. 'In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath.' This passage seems to imply that the uruks actually appeared shortly before Gondor's great defeat of III 2475

"Great Orcs... that kind is stronger and more fell than all others."
Éomer, from The Two Towers III 2, The Riders of Rohan
A common name for the large soldier-orcs of Mordor and later also Isengard that troubled Gondor and Rohan in the late Third Age.

In fact, this name is only ever used by Éomer, and may only have been current in Rohan, but the fearsome creatures it described had been known for five hundred years when he spoke these words: creatures whose name in their own Black Speech was Uruk-hai

The Uruks were not a crossbreed, as the movies say; they were merely "uber Orcs" created by Sauron after his defeat at the Last Alliance. They were impervious to sunlight, which gave them great advantage against the Free Peoples. Think of them like this: In Mordor, there were normal Trolls that would turn to stone in the sun, and then there were Olog-hai, which were the elite Trolls. They were smarter, faster, stronger, and impervious to sunlight.

[Lauri]

I don't agree with Smeagolfan24....

1) They are Uruk-Hai... their practically born fighters (however their really born)
2) The raiders, or scouts as I like to call them, were indeed set out for the hobbis, thus their armor and equipment is lesser than that of the army-uruks
3) I don't think Saru trained the raiders about warfare when they are born fighters and on a mission to kill 5 people and capture 4 hobbits.... (or, 4 people if Saru knew about Gandy... doubt it though)

I'd say, and I know not how they are now, but Raiders are better in speed, and lesser in armor, while the normal uruks are the other way around (remember, speed goes for all speedy things... attack-rate too )

[Smeagolfan24]

They are Uruk-Hai... their practically born fighters (however their really born)

They were all Uruk-hai, yet Saruman had more time to make the small party that attacked the Fellowship. He rushed the ones that attacked Helm's Deep.

The raiders, or scouts as I like to call them, were indeed set out for the hobbis, thus their armor and equipment is lesser than that of the army-uruks

The amount of armor doesn't replace skill level. The Uruks of the 10,000 were wearing hastily-made plate steel. Heavy, shoddily-made. They won most of the battle by moral, minor skill, and numbers. The Uruk scouts had lighter armor, true, but still formidible.

I don't think Saru trained the raiders about warfare when they are born fighters and on a mission to kill 5 people and capture 4 hobbits.... (or, 4 people if Saru knew about Gandy... doubt it though)

Why do you doubt that he taught them more warfare? Surely he wanted to ensure success as well as he could?

And for those who don't want half-trolls, here's something I found about them:

Creatures bred from Orcs and Men by the Wizard Saruman in his stronghold at Isengard. Like Sauron's Uruk-hai, they could withstand sunlight. The more Man-like of them, of perhaps a slightly different breed, were known as Goblin-men.

[Garrison Nomad]

So....saruman had a lotta freaky-lookin folks wanderin around that ole tower, eh?

IDK....sumthin about the uniformity of the uruk-hai is....really cool.

Oh, and if you think isengard has no weakness, try playing elves against them, and use a lot of archers.

[Strider]

Yes Realism, Warfare aint fare, I know. But we can only take that to a certain extent. We need to be balanced. My point is since Nazgul's favorite faction is Isengard he seems to be spoiling them a little(Best Soldiers in the game is a good example).

Im with Smeagol on this one. Their is no biological difference between the Uruk raiders and Uruk Warriors. But the Raiders were likely better equiped and stronger(think all the running they did).

As for the Origin or Uruks, its different depending on where the Uruks are from. THe Uruks of Isengard dont have a very clear origin, but they seem to be some sort of cross between Men and Orcs(I doubt its sexual though. Just some Black Magic of Sarumon's).

The Black Uruks are a different story. They are pure Orc with Some of Sauron's power instilled in them. Some claim they have Warg like qualitys, thats open for debate(once again, probably not sexual, just some Dark Magic). Black Uruks should be stronger then any Isengard Uruk. Nazgul has a thing for Isen Uruks though, so he made them stonger.

[Smeagolfan24]

I agree. The Uruks of Mordor were first, and stronger, than the ones of Isengard, yet they were both quite formidable.

A suggestion: The Uruk soldiers (the ones that attacked Helm's Deep) were supposed to be exaactly alike, so I would not do the randomising skins like GTO is doing for Kings of the West peasants.

[Nazgûl]

Yes Realism, Warfare aint fare, I know. But we can only take that to a certain extent. We need to be balanced. My point is since Nazgul's favorite faction is Isengard he seems to be spoiling them a little(Best Soldiers in the game is a good example).
> What? I'm a Nazgul... ;p guess what my favourite faction is! I love Uruks, yes, but MORDOR is my faction buddy =p

Im with Smeagol on this one. Their is no biological difference between the Uruk raiders and Uruk Warriors. But the Raiders were likely better equiped and stronger(think all the running they did).
> But the "Figthing Uruk-hai had better armor (plate). The scouts had leather and chain mail...

As for the Origin or Uruks, its different depending on where the Uruks are from. THe Uruks of Isengard dont have a very clear origin, but they seem to be some sort of cross between Men and Orcs(I doubt its sexual though. Just some Black Magic of Sarumon's).

The Black Uruks are a different story. They are pure Orc with Some of Sauron's power instilled in them. Some claim they have Warg like qualitys, thats open for debate(once again, probably not sexual, just some Dark Magic). Black Uruks should be stronger then any Isengard Uruk. Nazgul has a thing for Isen Uruks though, so he made them stonger.
> This has been WILDLY discusses before with Lore-folks such as Zimoo and Matias, and I lost... I did share a lot of your thoughts on this, but I was overrun They say it's all sexual... even if I still doubt it. Originally the BU's was stronger, now they are not =p

A suggestion: The Uruk soldiers (the ones that attacked Helm's Deep) were supposed to be exaactly alike, so I would not do the randomising skins like GTO is doing for Kings of the West peasants.

Ehm, do we have random skins for Isen uruks? Nope!

[Smeagolfan24]

I was just making sure that you didn't.

[Nazgûl]

Haha yeah don't worry. That would be called "unnescessary work"