1328 replies to this topic

[Iluvatar]

Well I like the splitting idea, cause a lot of factions get sub-factions;)! but why choosing the blue mountains? I oppinion would bring us to something like Loneley mountain and Iron Hills:) What do you guys think? Or maybe Kazhad Dum ( an ancient dwarenfaction, like arnor is the ancient of gondor?)..

Jakob J.

[Iluvatar]

I'm sorry for double post, and I'm sorry for placing this to the wrong faction... I'll move it to the dwarves;)

Jakob J.

[mike_]

I must say that I like the idea of having each Elven sub-faction be somewhat specialized.
It would also make it seem like they're having to rely on one another for aid - having Lorien call in some Rivendell infantry to supplement their forces.
Which is a good thing, in my opinion.
Cheers,
-mike

[tylerman29]

i like the idea but i dont want it to be like wars of arda.......

[ElrondHighLord]

Theres been alot of talk about lorien, not having cavalry, yet there is plenty of evidence supporting the contrary.

Firstly, in the rotk- many partings i think thats the chapter about p973 ish , galadriel and celeborn are leading the elven escort on great white steeds and have travelled a great distance from lorien presuming great horsemanship of both of them, as side saddle would be inappropiate for any distance.

secondly, the elves of lorien ( arwen, celebrian and the twins) are often travelling between imladris and lorien. The only entrance to rivendell is via the ford of brunien which is a bit too deep to walk through, and horses are needed to cross it. Furthermore, the distance is very great and hence would use a horse, and such highborns are likely to be a part of a cavalry escort for in the appendix , celebrian's escort did scatter in caradhras and were rescued by her sons- most likely riding due to the great urgence.

Thirdly, celeborn lead an assault after the fall of barad dur on dol guldur, basically a siege and the elves of lorien are only modertaley armoured , and it is likely that there would not use siege weapons only spellcasters like galadriel who "threw down the walls", hence due to the fact that celeborn larter leads an elven escort mounted and the elves are assaulting it seems resumable to presume that they used cavalry in the assault.Others, the losts would be huge.

Finally, i think, Dol Amroth is named after the Amroth elven king of lorien and later becomes renowned for its knights and nimrodel's companion ( amroth bethrothed) - Mitherallas later marries and bears a half elven child by the first dol amroth prince, hence where imhrail has elven blood as noted by legolas- it is likely that they were keen horse riders , thus making the harbour and knights to this memory of elvendom.

N.b, the elves of the royal house of galadriel and elrond while staying in lorien, which they did alot especially after the departure celebrian into the west, would need places to hold their horses while dwelling there which they did for many years, like stables and glades.

As, this idea that horses can not be used in woodland is wrong, as elven in doriath used horse, Thingol, Mablung in the hunt of caracaroth and th esilmarli, and in mirkwood for hunting. Arwen rdies through out forest in both trollshaw and at the edge of brunien with the tress close, and most of the evasion of the nine is done there. Plus, skilled horsemen in forest would be of great adavantage to assualting enemies. Both elven companies to mithlond ride thropugh forset, people need to undrstand and not assume that all forest is dense like eol's dwelling in nan elmoth.

[Fyro11]

ElrondHighLord,

In all of your references, there seems to be only two where cavalry could've been used for a full assault, not one-offs. And even those two (Celeborn's assault on Dol Guldur and Dol Amroth having Elvish roots) are questionable.

In Celeborn's attack, there didn't necessarily have to be high losses without the cav, remember Haldir and the Elves journey to Helms Deep, and how they played a big role in its defence?

Also, Dol Amroth possibly, or likely having Lorien roots would not affirm that their horses did too.

[mike_]

It's also said in Unfinished Tales that the Numenoreans wouldn't take their horses to battle for their love of them - how would the Elves feel?
Also...each and every example that you gave is of some Elven nobility and their escorts - not full battalions of them geared for war.
Cheers,
-mike

[Shikari]

Haldir and the Elves journey to Helms Deep, and how they played a big role in its defence?

This only happened in the films. The elves did not travel to HD in the books.

[Fyro11]

Haldir and the Elves journey to Helms Deep, and how they played a big role in its defence?

This only happened in the films. The elves did not travel to HD in the books.

I stand corrected. I guess it's due to watching the films after reading the trilogy. Soo sorry about that hehe. I'm gonna be reading the books again now.

But my point still stands. The Elves are adept with bows and swords, and they did not necessarily need cavalry to minimise losses, not those of Lothlorien at least. Maybe the Elves from the other realms, yes, but not Lorien imo- see elfhelm's post.

[ElrondHighLord]

Fyro 11,

There is one key difference you have made while comparing Celeborn's assault on Dol Guldor and Haldir's defence of Helms Deep, that is Helms Deep is defensive, where the elves were besieged and the Dol Guldor is an offensive attack on an eneny stronghold.

Firstly, with Helms Deep archers would be more effective during the siege as you can fit more in a smaller space, and cavalry is far less effective during a siege. This also results in the defence tactics, like preventing the enemy reaching the walls and holding them down. In the complete opposite scenario, Celeborn lead an offensive attack on Dol Guldur and leading a great host. Firstly, Dol Guldor is a heavily armoured fortress and one most use siege weapons. It is more likley that lorien elves would use either use spellcasters , like how Galadriel cleansed Dol Guldor as well as cavalry to assault an evil fortress to have a chance of defeating the enemy.

Yet, elves have had many renowned riders who have used horses and it makes sense that the Dol Amroth are linked by horses as that would explain why it was named so, for also the Elven Alliance mod has come to this conclusion with the amroth knights as well.

Further, well the elves of Imladris were going to join the leves of lorien to defend helms deep, - note the reference of Haldir to Theoden - We were sent of Elrond of Rivendell , here is also plenty of other evidence. Arwen waas going to ride out with Theoden and can still be seem behind him on Asfaloth and most likely with other elves in her company, as she is both of Imladris and Lorien .

Elfhelm,
regardless of how the numerorans felt the elves felt differently as they have used horses in countless enemies:
-Feanor lead a cavlary charge,
Fingon lead horse archers againist Glamurg the dragon,
Fingolfin rode Ringil to the gates of Angband
Aredhel often went riding in the company of the sons of feanor
Glorfindel lead horses at Formost,

to make a few occasions, as clearly as elves are immortal elves, would use all the resources they can to win , which would include their steeds.

Yet, even though it is the highborns that ride it would be a reflection of their skills and the skills they would use on battle and hence would not lead a cavalry charge singlely but as a group of them .

Edited by ElrondHighLord, 23 April 2008 - 03:47 PM.

[mike_]

And still, each of those examples that you've listed is either led by or is an Elven leader.
In the First Age, especially, horsemen were not used where they could have had great success - such as the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.
Tirgon himself chose to send a massive infantry block rather than a body of cavalry, when Gondolin was surrounded by "acres" of rich farmland perfect for grazing horses. Strangely, this was never capitalized on and left to sit.
Cheers,
-mike

[Grizzlez]

I think it is unlikely that elves of Lorien never used cavalry in battle. How about making the cavalry quite cheap and relatively small in number so that it reflects that they were not big cavalry users. However as Rob said, the minifactions idea won't work if you have a mini-faction unable to get cavalry because you need to be able to take advantage of all types of units in the game and not having fast units with Lorien basically deters people from using them. I have played the private beta, and trust me you would not want a reason to not use Lorien because of how great it is. You have to remember its a game, so some things in the books cannot be exactly the same because they have a different audience/purpose.

[robnkarla]

First, cavalry were used at different times including the Battle of Unnumbered Tears (though in emotional reaction to the maiming of Gelmir at the start):

By ill chance, at the place in the outworks stood Gwindor of Nargothrond, the brother of Gelmir. Now his wrath was kindled to madness, and he leapt forth on horseback, and many riders with him; and the pursued the heralds and slew them, and drove on deep into the main host.

Whether they intended to use the cavalry in the battle or not, they did in fact use them, showing that in times of war they can and will take to hose. Elsewhere, a little before this there is another short description:

There came a time of winter, when night was dark and without moon; and the wide plain of Ard-galen stretched dim beneath the cold stars, from the hill-forts of the Noldor to the feet of Thangorodrim. The watch-fire burned low, and the guards were few; on the plain few were waking in the camps of the horsemen of Hithlum.

So there are a couple references, one of battle with cavalry the other with a standing cavalry (which type is not mentioned - scout/light/heavy).

But then it comes down to a couple things:
- Not whether they had standing cavalry in Lothlorien, but if need came did they have the skill and ability to use warfare from atop a mount. The idea that they had a standing armed cavalry is not likely, but enough of them should have had the capability to take to a horse.
- Most important as Grizzlez mentions, it really is a gameplay choice if they are used. I'm not sure if you followed Tolkien lore, every piece, you most likely would not have the most balanced, enjoyable game. Similar to how the movies were meant to take the books to a different medium and actually do a number of changes in order for them to make such an excellent movie, the same can be said for the games and mods. EA, I think, actually did a pretty good job with BFME1 in creating a game based on the WotR that is really fun to play. BFME2 is also really enjoyable to play outside of the faults, but I won't talk about RotWK. My disappointment in that is what got me into modding. So some choices in the game/mod are to add enjoyment to playing in Middle-Eath rather than an expose on Tolkien Lore.

Anyway, there's my 2 cents.
Robert J.

[CIL]

Dude, make an actual account, double posting is kinda annoying, people don't like it... That way you can edit your posts and convey what you needed to convey without double posting.

[myster]

lmao. THEY ARE SPLIT UP IN LOTH LORIEN, RIVENDELL AND MIRKWOOD FFS!! (sorry for caps guys but...)

[tylerman29]

Guests are annoying make an account and read all the other posts before acting stupid.

[mike_]

He was simply making a suggestion, so it was ignorance, not stupidity.
There's a difference
Sorry for the Off-Topicness, guys.
Cheers,
-mike