1328 replies to this topic

[robnkarla]

I've explained the thought of why they are there. It does not mean it will stay the way I've described, but PLEASE one thing to keep in mind. Many of the areas are EXTREMELY time consuming and it takes a VERY long time to put together to work they way they should without the bugs that could plague these ideas.

A couple of reasons why I say this: Please don't ask when concepts of Mirkwood buildings will be ready. My goal for 1.06 (if you want to see it at the beginning of summer) is to have all elven units/powers in place, and Lothlorin structures all ready. Unless a miracle happens, I'm not planning on working on Rivendell and Mirkwood buildings until after the next public beta.

The units are where they are right now, and might stay there for a few weeks until all the units are done. They won't stay exactly how they are currently in the private beta. I'm working through sooo many areas of the beta and trying to get rid of bugs and make sure all powers are in place, so I can only work on so much at once in this hobby.

I encourage this discussion as important to explore options of what can be done, just realize that there are reasons why there are not many mods that change the game as much as many of the mods on the3rdage. It takes time and patience, so I just ask to be patient. The mod has come very far and has some distance left.

Robert J.

[dojob]

I don't think anybody here is rushing you it's just a friendly discussion on which system is the best.

[Dalf32]

ok, im leaning towards yoda's suggestion; more of an emphasis on the somewhat pre-planned differences between the factions to make each one feel like more of an individual faction. im not too keen on the idea of removing units completely from each minifaction as that forces you to get the other minifactions and could cripple someone for 10+ minutes as they are trying to get the aid of another faction.

EDIT: btw; please note, everyone, that i keep reiterating to make sure everyone understood what was going on right now (at least as far as i knew it) and not to be really really stubborn (i try not to be). ill admit in hindsight it could be construed oddly, but, as they say, its 20 20 so whatever. not accusing anyone of anything btw, just sayin like shikari said

EDIT2: quick question; were you planning on adding walls to the new elves? as of now they dont have them; i wouldnt miss them anyways because they werent all that useful without any expansions other than gates (and gobbos dont have walls; they dont seem to have any problems).

Edited by Dalf32, 06 May 2008 - 10:18 PM.

[Devon]

Mirkwood and Lorien will have different castles than the current rivendell walls.

[Fyro11]

Mirkwood and Lorien will have different castles than the current rivendell walls.

YAY!

[mike_]

[fingers crossed] Please be flet-based [/fingers crossed]

[Scryer]

Here's a suggestion for Arwen, when you're working on Rivendell. Do you think that you could make her into a hero that really specializes in healing other units and heroes? Generally, for the 3 factions, you have 3 heroes for each - generally being the key-word folks. This would be a different path to take with her instead of "cookie-cutting" from another hero.

I think that if this path (sorry about overusing the word) was taken, Arwen would have mostly passive healing powers. What do you guys think on this concept?

[Fyro11]

With regards to the Mirkwood buildings/fortress and castle it should be stealthed. This is because I don't think it could be a heavily fortified fortress, and Mirkwood is a stealth faction so that's probably the best path to take. Anyhow, the only way a building should be discoverable is by bumping into it. Say if you was to bump into one building, only that building should be revealed, nothing else.

[dojob]

ok, im leaning towards yoda's suggestion; more of an emphasis on the somewhat pre-planned differences between the factions to make each one feel like more of an individual faction. im not too keen on the idea of removing units completely from each minifaction as that forces you to get the other minifactions and could cripple someone for 10+ minutes as they are trying to get the aid of another faction.

But people generally only get 2/3 kinds of units anyway at first, and at the very beginning, you'll still have like 6 options and more, but you'll actually have to choose which kinds of units are available in the early game.

How can 3 individual factions that are smacked together be more deep/less redundant/less overwhelming than 1 faction that's made of 3 minifactions that contribute to one faction. My idea would help the faction feel united and would force people to THINK before choosing.

I'm sorry if I'm being stubborn by not agreeing with all of you and by continuing to argue, but I don't see how a system that's

a) full of redundancies
b) overwhelming the player in unit options (when 2 of the same kind of unit are enough (At a single tier, anyway), as I've argued and you haven't refuted)
c) damages the uniqueness of the minifactions (since they all have most of the same stuff)
d) damages the unity of the faction (why the hell would I want the other minifacs when this one has all the unit types)

is better than my idea, which involves:

a) has less/no redundancy
b) still provides the minifacs with a fighting chance (you just gotta be smart and think about which minifac is best in which matchup, etc. They'll definitely have enough units to hold out, which shouldn't be too long)
c) Maintains and deepens specialism (I've explained this in one of my other posts)
d) You can still have full Rivendell/Lorien/Mirkwood factions in the campaign.
e) more choices/risks for the player
f) Increases the dependency on getting the other minifacs and thus creating a full, united Elven faction (otherwise, you may as well just split them into individual factions...)

Sure, my idea could be more challenging and will definitely be a lot less forgiving, but that only forces a player to think ahead and make choices wisely. I'd assume that the minifacs would be less costly (500-1500) to make buying them viable in the midgame, which means that a player won't be entirely limited, but WILL have to choose their minifaction based on their tactics and strategy.

With more uniqueness between minifacs, each one will play differently from the other and thus, we will have diversity. You can't get that with 3 clones of a techtree with some minor differences thrown into one faction. Sure you could use ur units a little differently with the current system, but you will pretty much always get the same units.

Edited by dojob, 07 May 2008 - 07:58 PM.

[Devon]

For one thing, I think people are missing the difference between minifactions and subfactions. Arnor has minifactions, MotE and Elves have subfactions.

And second...I don't think that you really get the amount of stat difference the various units will receive.

[dojob]

But there roles will still either be pretty much the same or will be so extreme that they're only useful in a few special situations and crap at others; could you list the role of all 9 early infantry units? I can bet quite a bit that there will be overlaps in roles.

Edited by dojob, 07 May 2008 - 08:12 PM.

[Devon]

They won't be extreme, and they won't be the same.

Lets take swordsmen for an example.

Mirkwood will have a fast moving and attacking light sword units, decentish attack, and really low armor. Useful for hit and runs on buildings and taking down some units up close (like archers)

Lorien will have the typical sword unit, good for countering spearmen and archers, fairly average.

Rivendell will have beastly swords, slow moving and attacking but heavily armored, able to take down almost any unit/monster.

So if you're mirkwood, you might want some better armored swords that can still keep up with your army, or some total havoc wreckers. Lorien, you most likely want the heavy armored guys, and rivendell will most likely not bother with swords, since theirs already own. So you're really not dealing with 9 basic units, as it's not in every factions best interests to get the 2 from the other subfactions.

[dojob]

You know, I already saw you make that comparison/example over hamachi

I already argued against it over hamachi, and since we agreed that it's subjective over hamachi, this argument is done

Edited by dojob, 07 May 2008 - 09:30 PM.

[Allathar]

Here we go again........

[dojob]

Here we go again........

See my edit.

[Dalf32]

dojob, i dont think that your system would offer any benefits over the direction that the system is currently going. taking out spears for example leaves the player wide open to a cavalry attack for the first 10 minutes or so of the game until they have a chance to get some help from another faction.

I'd assume that the minifacs would be less costly (500-1500) to make buying them viable in the midgame, which means that a player won't be entirely limited, but WILL have to choose their minifaction based on their tactics and strategy.

just to clarify, if the recruiting system remains the way it is setup now, it only costs 500 to buy the ally beacon, but once that is bought you can select a free alliance (if you will) and once that is finished buying (30 secs - 1 min i think) you must then wait 10+ minutes as i have said before. this simulates the time it would take for help to actually arrive, so the system is not really cost intensive, but more time intensive. as of now that is.

[Myrdin]

i want to say something to this ( though not much for i will wait till the beta gets out ) :

lets say you play some rpg ( Diablo, Titan Quest, Gothic, whatever ).

in these kind of games you HAVE to choose one path that you will take ( class - Sorcerrer, Wariorr, Paladin, etc etc etc ), makes the game unique each time you choose new character, and provides " replaying " the game itself.

This kind of thing goes for some strategies as well, just as quick example - Comand g Conquer Generals Zero Hour - you got three Main Sides ( USA, China and GLA ) - but in Zero Hour each of these three, has 3 or 4 subfactions - that change the whole faction ( not the main units, but the way you play ), lets say

GLA - Stealth General ( Mirkwood in our case ) - his buildings are still the same as normal GLA, BUT + stealth possibility, it changes units and even some General Powers ( power you can use as special - same lik lotr Palantir powers ).

If you choose GLA - Doktor Thrax - your units will be modified into deadly toxic users, having all units be able to get toxic dmg, plus the power three get slight changes too.

If you choose USA - Air general - you will have strong air, but lack some tanks, + modified General tree
If you choose USA - Special weapons general - you will have powerfull Patticle canon, decreased costs, on some structures, etc etc all heavy tanks, + modified General tree

and this way it goes.

If you dont like CgC General, then Dragonshard - fantasy RTS, based on Dungeon g Dragons rules - when building base, you are limited with buildplots but you have like 10 buildings ( EACH PROVIDING DIFFERENT UNIT TYPE ), soo you must think carefully which one you choose, to combine the best army that will be suiting you.

And there we are near to what i want to say - im Saing for elfs - each subfaction should have all unit types, as it is right now, but the player is LIMITED, ONE SUBFACTION PER GAME. soo basically he will get all unit types, but some of these will have the bonuses provided by the subfaction.

giving him the possibility to choose all 3 at once ( + the main one ), make him get " unitoverflowing " and, wont courage him to play the elfs so soon again, for he will see everything in just ONE game.
But if he could get one subf. per game he would have to play it 3 times, each time choosing diferent subf. giving the game its " replay " worth.

i hope i explained it soo that you all can understand my stand, im not saying that you will have to do just one subf. im saying inside the game you should be limited, to be able to get just one subfaction in one game. ( or else, it might as well happen, that after one game you grow bored with elfes )

its not cool to be able to get all you want - more interesting is to get just something, soo that you are anxious to play another time choosing diferent new " game " chaning you strategy.

[Fyro11]

I agree entirely with Myrdin; gj btw. The Elves would dry out 3x quicker. Plus, it's not a lot of work to remove the availability of two subfactions to one in each game. The thing is, we have given you our points as to why, but you haven't given a reason as to why not to reduce to two.

Errr... possibly because there is no reason??

[myster]

the reason is, that you can supplement your weak points with the good points from other factions. wich is something i am totally for.

+ its not like playing 3 times with elves to just see how the look would be a real hard thing to do... max 30 minutes or so 8-)

im for being able to getting all 3 factions in one game.. This would diverse the strategies used by elves much more... instead of just getting a mirkwood strat, an lorien strat and a rivendell strat(with all their unique weaknesses), but you would get like mirkwood+some units from rivendell strat, mirkwood+ some lorien unit strat.. etc. wich would all help to uniquefy(not a real word, i know ) the whole game of the elves.

im just against having 3 different elven factions with big weaknesses and not being able to fill that gap somehow.
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what i also would like to ask is, would all 3 subfactoins get their own palantirpowers or would it all be the same?

[Myrdin]

yeah and in the end you end up with

elite most powerfull archers in the whole game
elite damn powerfull dwarven like infantry
and wery strong cawalery

soo basically you WONT BE OP, no weakness at all but still no OP right . . . ( i hope you feel the irony from my words )