1328 replies to this topic

[Dalf32]

you try silently sneaking through the woods with two swords in hand and fighting someone and then come back to us and say that dual wielding swords is stealthy. i dont have a problem with straying from the lore in this instance because it makes logical sense for them to have used knives or at the most small (very small; like slightly longer than daggers) swords.

[Vithar-133]

This is beginning to get pointless. The knifefighters use knives, and more than likely they will be. Unless you are willing to adjust/ make your own model and animations. The be my guest. The lore can't be applied all the time in terms of gameplay. If anything, they'd use long knives because even short swords can be hard to use in stealth. And don't say long knives and short swords are the same.

Edited by Vithar Megilaglar, 14 August 2008 - 11:15 PM.

[mike_]

You do realize that your 'ninjato' were actually just peeping-toms?

And uh...right. Personally, I'd rather see them use axes than knives..the reason being a sword uses a lot more metal than either a knife or an axe. And an axe uses even less than a knife. Anyway, a forest-dwelling, isolated group of Silvan Elves likely would use their natural talents and what's available to them to their advantage; stealth, which is inherent among the Elf-kind, and a lack of metals yet abundance of wood. And the 'Grey (Silvan) Elves' are said to have used the spear, bow, and axe in the First Age.

So...yeah. Thanks for your feedback.

[mike_]

Aw, I got ignoreded :(

[Vithar-133]

Heh. I guess the fact of the matter isn't the size of the blade, its how you use it.

Oh, (if were going to rely on fantasy/ historical stereotypes), assassins would use dual knives.

And, while I'm raving my head off, Tolkein never said much about how the elves did war.

Not to use your words against you, but most of the Battle for Middle Earth series 'mutilates the lore'. And if we absolutely need to, we have mike, on of our Advisors, who is well acquainted with the lore.


and Like I said before: THIS IS GETTING PRETTY DARN POINTLESS!!!!!!!!!

Now, back to your posts. I don't care what I feel. I'm not the mod leader. I'll leave all decisions to Rob.


*Gives mike a large book on Tolkein lore.*

[mike_]

/giggles like a madman

[mike_]

Oh, so it's a game of specificness is it? I'll see your bluff...

Spears are mentioned first. Meaning they would have been used more predominately. It's more likely than not that a decently-sized portion of the Wood-Elves' host would live in the Halls of Thranduil; so, being closer to the King, it's more likely they would have been wealthy enough to gear themselves for war in sufficient strength; warranting the inclusion of swords in this brief mention of their melee weapons. However, it's even more likely than what I've already stated that the vast majority of the Elven-Host would have lived outside the Elvenking's domain; and so would have been given weapons (spears, armor, knives) that would have been stored in any armouries in Thranduil's possession. Being cheaply-made but useful gear, it all makes sense.

[Vithar-133]

My turn at the game board now.

Ok, So, I've said this is pointless. I've also said to learn to model and animate if you want to change this. Also, the particular passage you chose was in an open plain, where stealth is nearly meaningless. (You try sneaking around in an open plain, whether it's day or night, and with thousands of people to see you.) I will relent only on one factor.You could provide with some proof from Tolkein's books that the Silvan Elves fought primarily with swords.

And, if you spend 80% to 100% of your life in a forest and you use a sword without it getting caught in a tree, bramble or root, the you'd have to be amazing, not to mention dealing with the sheath for the sword as well. Knives are more suitable for battle in a wooded land due to their size. Axes are good for wooded land because of the way they are made.

I'm done, and this bores me. If you are so insistent that the lore prevails over common sense, so be it. I wouldn't wield a sword in a forest by choice, unless I've lived my life in a forest with that sword.

PS, I don't know how to model, skin, animate, etc. etc. That's why I am good at being a belligerent boor and the so called 'Wordsmith'.

Edited by Vithar Megilaglar, 15 August 2008 - 03:07 AM.

[Scryer]

'Wordsmith'... That's a cool title, I think I'll claim it in an RPG or something, hehehe .

IstariLord, you seem like a pretty decent guy, so I'm going to suggest that take some time and create an account .

Now back on topic:

I'm only going to expand on the gameplay here because my knowledge of the lore is crap..

It's not like the knife-fighters aren't suited for large-scale/open field battles. I'm pretty sure that they could hold their own if they have some good support. Stealth and guerrilla tactics are just their niche. The lore has to work with the gameplay in order to make it fun for the players; And in this case, there is no room for the lore. Unless, of course, the team does some cookie-cutting (I over-use that term..). Cookie-cutting swordsmen for Mirkwood is not cool, it's takes away Mirkwood's uniqueness. The bottom line is that I see a lack of "need" for swordsmen.

If you're inconfident with Mirkwood's units in open-field battles, then there's a solution for that: Purchase a Rivendell/Lorien alliance. The way that the team has the subfactions set up now, allows the player to cover the weaknesses that one sub-faction has.

And that's all I'm contributing to this discussion... Unless I get inspired.

Edited by Scryer, 15 August 2008 - 05:49 AM.

[Argeleb]

I got ignored :(

Edited by Argeleb, 15 August 2008 - 11:22 AM.

[Vithar-133]

Go ahead Scryer, It's not mine alone, although, at the moment, I am the Lone Wordsmith.

[Devon]

Cause you invented the title I don't even know what it means...


Sorry argeleb



And honestly...this is fairly pointless. I'm really gonna go in game and play mirkwood but be upset every time I see basic soldiers because they're not using the weapon I wanted more or the one that makes most sense to lore...

[Jaguar6]

I do have an account, yes I'm IstariLord> I just thought that I've been posting so many ideas lately you all must hate me by now, so I pretended to be someone else Sorry for the confusion

Now, back on topic...
To Mike, I see uor point, but all of the Elves of Mirkwood used stuff from the King's armory, because at that time Mirkwood was significantly reduced, it was only the northern half, the part above the Mountains of Mirkwood. Mrikwood also had only one city, the Halls of Thranduil, that means one armory, the same one his entire army used at The Battle of Five Armies.

To Vithar Megilagar: Look, I heard you the first time, I heard you the second time, and I heard you the third time. How many times must I tell you I heard you?!? It wasn't an open plain, it was the rocky foothills of a mountain, they had plenty of cover, it says so in the book. I have snuck around in woods day and night with double handed sword taller then myself, and I still defeated my foe, and didn't hit a single tree (I also had a broken thumb for the record).
It is common sense not to use only knives in combat, the knife is a weapon you use when the your enemy is to close to use your bow, you pull it out slash your foe, and put it back in. These are Elves not Gangsters!!!
I can't do anything related to modding, except draw pictures. So don't tell me to do it myself when I can't.
To Scryer, as I said before you can still be stealthy with a short double handed sword. You could have a two foot long handle, and a one foot long blade, yes I know it sounds weird but it's historical and it works. The whole assassin guy with two knives is a bunch of made up movie stuff, it is extremely stupid to use just knives, all real stealth warriors prefer a short sword (including myself).

To Yoda, You're right, but it hurts a lot to be a Ninja and watch as your Elven kinsfolk become to a subject to a horrible fantasy lie. Maybe if someone could tell me how to replace the Mirkwood Knife-Fighters in the next version of the mod with the Mirkwood Wardens from War in the East, after the next version of RJ-ROTWK comes out of coarse

[Puppeteer]

Most of your argument is based around the fact that all stealth warrios prefer short swords. Which, I see no proof for nor even the slightest reason to believe.

[Argeleb]

well, those weapons that Mirkwood knife fighter has are IMO longer than knives so its only a name question. And its good, because those "X warriors" and "X archers" are filling my head. I still wanna know has Arnor Lindon units, if someone of the team can tell ?

[Jaguar6]

Well, not modern stealth warriors
But, Ninjas prefer the Ninjato (a double handed short sword), because it was easier to use in a narrow street then a Katana.
The Basque actually used short swords and bucklers versus Charlemagne's army, and won.
The Vietnamese beat the Chinese in the 15th century using mainly short swords.
The Frisian Pier Gerlofs Donia and his "Black Heap" actually used huge double handed swords to defeat the Holy Roman Empire in the 1500's.
The Irish irregulars called rapparees actually used a six foot long pike with a long blade.

Is that enough proof. or do I need to add some more

Edit:Sorry Argeleb, I forgot you again! I hope that Arnor gets at least two Lindon units, I doubt the team will tell us though. I t would spoil the surprise!

Edited by Jaguar6, 15 August 2008 - 06:10 PM.