189 replies to this topic

[Excuse_me_princess]

Okay, I'm just going to say something here, first of all, I'm not a modder myself so this suggstion might be bullshit because it's impossible or too hard to do... but here I go.

Isn't it possible to make the CAH mode into an external thing?
Like the map editor.
You create a hero outside the game and than save a file in a folder so that BFME II can load it?

[Anri1]

Hm...CAH uses so many upgrades because there's like...four of every power? Why not just get rid of the upgraded versions and revamp and rebalance the CAH hero power system so that CAHs only get one version of the power instead of it upgrading?

This could work and won't remove cah's. also if CAHs stay, there could be more classes like Dunadain captain(with the abbility of toggle), and Dark Numenorian captain(with the abbility of toggle 2) for Arnor and Angmar.( I am not a modder but if it's possible...) CAHs are preaty OP but they could be rebalanced. I do not agree with the point of despising CAHs.

[Berethin]

No matter what, I think it would be good if create-a-hero could remain in RJ. It's not really important, but it's nice to mess around with once in a while. I think, if it were dropped entirely, it would not affect players enjoyment of RJ, but it's loss might be a lingering regret for some who really liked CaH. (Not one to keep them from playing and loving the mod, of course!) If worse comes to worse, there's no question about this issue: drop CaH, so that RJ may continue to grow and expand! But perhaps there is a way to both cut down on CaH and, at the same time, make compensation for those cuts.

So, I have a suggestion. Would it be possible to condense the create-a-heroes into three categories: Good, Evil, and Wizards? For instance, you'd have the man, elf, and dwarf subcategories all under Good, and they'd have access to a trimmed selection of their previous collective powers. Trolls, servants of Sauron, and evil men would all be combined like this as well.

The powers could be greatly thinned out this way, leaving only three out of the original seven power menues. Many powers could be dropped completely, but that could be compensated by the fact that different heroes will have access to powers previously unavailable to them. (It would be interesting, for instance, to see a mounted dwarf, or one that uses a bow! Admitedly, I don't know how that would work, but it would be nice. ) I have a few examples of what I think could be done:

Earthshaker - in my opinion, it's overpowered. Drop entirely, for both Good and Evil heroes. (Besides, a good hero who would be able to mount and then ride to an area and launch an earthquake would be a nightmare! Same thing with whirlwind, actually.)

Battle\Beserker Rage - either drop, or restrict to only one button set at either level two or three.

Barrage - restrict to one level, either one or two.

Coerce\Convert - drop entirely. It is really rather ridiculously overpowered and unrealistic.

Elendil - drop. It doesn't even look right when the hero uses it.

Summon reinforcements - either drop or cut down the number of levels to it.

Athelas, Leap, Arrow storm - drop. I always thought Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas deserve them as unique moves of their own.

Word of Power - same reasoning as above. Moves similar to spear throw and blademaster are more common, so I don't think they're a problem this way.

Keep such powers as spear throw and the wizards' fireballs as three different levels, if possible; drop ax throw, though, because it would be redundant with spear throw for a Good hero.

I think each menu should have only one power that goes into the fourth tier. For instance, Invulnerabilty for Good, Poison Blade for Evil, and Wizard Blast for the Wizards.

I understand that there could be balance issues with this idea, but if most of the powerful abilities are restricted to lower levels or removed, I think it could work. This might clear enough room for RJ to grow, and perhaps even open up some new possiblities for CaH.

[Neth]

I think that the team shold just remove it completely and concentrate on the factions. Or some classes could be dropped (Wizard, Mix the 2 evil men kinds into 1)

Edited by Nethelen Narcu, 10 May 2009 - 04:46 PM.

[Excuse_me_princess]

Okay, I'm for combininb classes.
But why remove the wizard class, if one class has to stay it's that one, because there are not enough wizard heroes as it is.

[Devon]

All the canonical wizard are in game...that's all five of them that came over to Middle Earth

[Anri1]

Yep, withards could be axed. Dunadain and Dark Numenorian Rangers could come instead. And powers could be cut down(One rank of one power could be). And the total health, strength, armor etc. could be cut down. This way CAHs would be as strong as normal heroes. And lots of modding space would appear without axing CAHs complitely. ( sorry for frequency of words "would" and "could" )

Edited by Anri1, 13 May 2009 - 12:54 PM.

[Neth]

Rob probably won't add classes! The mod needs all the upgrades it can get to make it better but why don't you remove it slowly as you need more upgrades?

[Excuse_me_princess]

All the canonical wizard are in game...that's all five of them that came over to Middle Earth

Yeah, about canon, the whole idea of cah was placing the player him/herself in the game.
So you could lead you're troops yourself, more af a what if basis (what if I was there to defend Minas tirith... with my dwarven army!)

The wizzard class doesn't say "I come from lands far away." because they're Tom Bombadil's neighbour.
There are more lands surrounding Middle earth where other wizards could have come from (Khand, Endor etc.)
And then we would almost forget the hermits who live in damp caves, observing middle earth, doing nothing until his peace is disturbed.
Not to forget you're dark mage who practices dark magic and necromancie in deep dark dungeons waiting for his time to strike.
So that would propably solve that problem.

But, if there are but 5 wizards in Middle earth, you should remove the Istari alcove from the Mote and te sorcerors of Angmar, those are non canonical too than.

[Darth Stalin]

Well, for me CaH adds some role-play to the game, just as mentioned above. Thus I can create my own Good/Evil character to fight in my campaign and have some different abilities than my "canonical" heroes. It just looks fine for me and should stay in game.

[Gr1m]

Yeah, about canon, the whole idea of cah was placing the player him/herself in the game.
So you could lead you're troops yourself, more af a what if basis (what if I was there to defend Minas tirith... with my dwarven army!)

The wizzard class doesn't say "I come from lands far away." because they're Tom Bombadil's neighbour.
There are more lands surrounding Middle earth where other wizards could have come from (Khand, Endor etc.)
And then we would almost forget the hermits who live in damp caves, observing middle earth, doing nothing until his peace is disturbed.
Not to forget you're dark mage who practices dark magic and necromancie in deep dark dungeons waiting for his time to strike.
So that would propably solve that problem.

But, if there are but 5 wizards in Middle earth, you should remove the Istari alcove from the Mote and te sorcerors of Angmar, those are non canonical too than.

While most of that post can be argued away, I think that last line is pretty spot on.

Plus, the mod - and the game itself - does pick and choose regarding canonicity all the time. Removing any CaH class on the sole reason of sticking true to canon doesn't really work.

If it becomes necessary to free up all the ability slots CaH uses, then axing it sounds fine by me. But I think redoing the CaH system, cutting down the abilities and rebalancing the whole thing seems a much more reasonable option. As has been said innumerable times already - if you don't like CaHs, then disable them.

Edited by Gr1m, 14 May 2009 - 09:06 AM.

[Hasfusel]

I don't mind removing CAHs if it's necessary, but if you can keep them, why not?

I don't think you should remove the Sorcerers. This is another point where playability overweighs lore. They're unique and useful and fun to play with, and Tolkein's universe permits men medding with magic for their own dark ends, although it was usually them being decieved by a bad Maiar or something and had a bad cost - for example, the disciples of the sorcerer get their souls eaten, remember? In Middle-Earth, the Elves and Dwarves had natural magic, with the possibility of Dunedain magic and anything else being evil but possible. Tolkein even said that the Blue Wizards might have started magic cults in the East after corruption. Also, I'm not sure about this but I'm pretty sure the Witch-King was a sorcerer before he was given the Ring, when he was a mortal man.
Keep Sorcerers and Magi (a more fitting name for MotE sorcerers), I think. As long as there's a distinction between Wizards (the Istari) and mortal spellcasters.

Edited by Hasfusel, 14 May 2009 - 11:46 AM.

[Dalf32]

for some reason, people keep thinking that the plan is to get rid of cah all together, and as soon as possible. im not really sure where this idea is coming from, but it certainly is not true. the plan has been and probably always will be to keep cah for as long as possible, and only get rid of it if it is absolutely necessary.
as you can tell, cah is still in, and *hopefully* things will stay that way, but if rob needs more upgrades to add new units or whatever, theres nowhere else to take from.

[Berethin]

Sounds good. My only question is, if it comes to it, will the team cut down on CAH (e.g. combinging classes) rather than removing it entirely? Is it possible, I should ask, to combine classes as has been talked about above?

[Dalf32]

i really dont know, i would have to ask rob. i dont know if hes even looked into it actually...

[Excuse_me_princess]

What if you axe it down like this:

Instead of a class, you can choose a race.
Human (hero of the west, wizard, mote), elf, dwarf, uruk, orc, and trolls.
After that you can pick a sex (not for uruks, orcs, trolls dwarfs).
- Perhaps a face/voice select for humans? (if possible);
- Maybe all units could be unisex (useable by all factions);
- Make an unisex name for all classes like: adventurer or wanderer;
- Fuse elves and humans, giving the ears to certain hairstyles?

The next step is creating the appereance (using all the armours and hair styles available) and the equipment (All items)
- I do think it's hard to render the orc, dwarven and troll armour available to other races, but the equipment (shields and weapons) should be possible;
- Maybe some additions can be made like:
- More armour: In addition to making all armours available, perhaps some special RJ armours can be added (I'm thinking Arnor, Angmar);
- New weapons and fighting styles: some new weapons (WK's trident or flail perhaps) and fighting styles (I'm thinking Gandalfs staff/sword combo).

Next, you can distribute points to set the basic values of you're hero.
- Perhaps no more recommend button.

All the different skill lists will be axed and made into one, so all the skills that look alike will be fused, chanced or taken out.
- Example: remove Elendil and make it like Boromir's horn or eye of fear (Elendil should be a Aragorn only skill);
- Make all powers full strenght, but devide them between levels 1-5 (one skill for every two levels).



This is probably hard to do (as I said before, I have no experience modding), but as I see it it could serve more ends, both axing and improving cah, by taking out unneeded things and making units more customizeable (just as it should have been in the first place if you ask me!?... but thats EA's fault.)

[Uruk King]

Technically it's expanding the CAH, but I really like the idea, it reminds me of the Dungeons and Dragons/ Forgotten Realms RPGs (old favourites of mine )

But it would take a technical genius who has wroked on this sort of PC character software before to even know the first step on expending the Create-a-hero a it is. Getting the individual voices would be tricky enough. The only other way is priavately hiring a RPG/Action game software advisor/engineer to provide advice on the matter. But that's only if Rob wants to do it.

[Excuse_me_princess]

I know, but by combining almost everything, you can open up a lot of space.
By creating one unisex class that you can fully customize, you take out the need too create different classes, with their own tech tree.
Yes, on some points I am proposing to add some things, but only if it's possible,if it ain't possible... than it's too bad.
I personally think that CAH shouldn't be removed... but expanded.
Don't get me wrong, I can fully understand why people want to axe it.
I'm realistic and if favors are against it, then sadly CAH wi'll be the first to be axed.

So I was simply proposing to throw all we have in one class (with the change race option) it opens up a lot of space by taking out 6 of the 7 classes (17 sub classes) and all their different skill trees.
Fusing all the armours and weaponery and skills, means there's more to customize, while making more space.
(Or do I have a completly wrong idea of how this shit works?)
You could make an elven mage or a Gondorian bowman.

Remember that I'm just shouting stuff here, it might be the suggestion we need... or total bullshit.
But I'd rather just say 10 things, with 9 being rejected and 1 being useable.
Brainstorming my friends, that's where all the good stuff comes from.

Another option might be (and I may have uttered this before) to make CAH an external program like the map editor.
This however is only possible if a created hero is saved as a loose file and can thus be removed from the program without any system failure.
(Then Again, a program must be made... which probably is a little difficult.)

Let me end by quoting my motto: Don't see it as an obstacle, see it as an chalange!

[Vithar-133]

Taking off of that idea:

Alot of the groups, in my opinion are only different because of stats and looks.

My first idea would be to cut out one group from each of dwarves, men, and elves and then combine them into the Free Peoples group. That way, you'd only need one powerlist rather than three.

Next, the wizard-ish group could be taken down to one class rather than three, and left "neutral".

Last, doing the same thing with the evil groups as would be done with the good groups. So you have, say, Orcs, Haradrim, and Olog-Hai. This would also do the same deal of taking it down to one powerlist.

[Uruk King]

Okay, that's nothing like what I would like, not one bit.

I was thinking of something along the lines of RPG games which allow you to fully customise your character, choosing from first Sex, then Race (human, elf dwarf, orc), Portrait (if possible), Class (warrior, archer, wizard, etc.), Abilities (or statistics), Skills (or character specialties), and appearance. Rather than condensation into one hideous ugly mess, much worse than the original product. But that's just my two cents on the matter, I can't really see it happening.

Alternatively, CAH as a separate program could work, but would require a software genius.

I mostly agree with EMP's (Excuse_me_princess) statement, but disaprove of Vithars. And as I often say: If it's not broke don't fix it.