110 replies to this topic

[Nertea]

@Foe-of-the-Nine: I actually think that a good deal of archers in the stock game did that - if not with swords then with thumping people with their bows like the Gondor Archers did. Horse archers did not.

@Huorns: Even if they were siege (which I don't think they really ever did, it was the Ents themselves that Merry describes as freezing onto buildings), Rohan still needs its own siege because Fangorn is a minifaction. So raaaaam.

@Thorin: That's a good point with the cavalry speed thing. Unfortunately the whole army isn't going to be of equal speed anyways due to the light cavalry being faster... so what do we do? I don't know... I tend to upgrade my units in chunks anyways.

What might happen is that since plans are for the HA upgrade to often reduce the speed of the equipee somewhat, the horse upgrade could eliminate that. That way heores could have a "default" speed that would still be equal to all the other horses' (except the lightest type). Deploying heavy armour on the three types that can get it would slow them down a small amount, then the horse upgrade can be purchased to compensate for that and return the unit to speed equal with the heroes. Royal Guards would have armour and better horses already incorporated, so wouldn't have either upgrade. Does that work perhaps?

[Foe-of-the-Nine]

so are you saying that the horse archers won't draw sword?

and about Huorns... I see your point... and I also agree that Rohan can have a ram... but in the vanilla game the facts that the ents punched everything seemed... a little hasty... and since Huorns are even more treeish they should be even less hasty... thence the slow tearing apart drain attacks... maybe Huorns would just be a super defense unit, super slow but able to kill orcs with with its roots with grim efficiency making them all but immune to anything save mobs of orc laborers and fire arrows... I think that it'd be interesting to be able to make "Huorn Walls" to guard fords or passes or something... I just picture the slow groping roots as something that would tear apart stone more effectively than flesh... but I'm sure you've got an awesome idea for them already everything in this mod has been as good as I could ask for so far so I have every confidence that you'll make it plenty awesome even if you don't take any of my ideas... but this is for brainstorming and I'm just trying to offer what meager help I can...

Edited by Foe-of-the-Nine, 27 April 2008 - 06:57 PM.

[mike_]

I think it would be good for the mounted archers to automatically draw melee weapons when enemies get close enough. Would keep them unique and remove some micromanaging.
Cheers,
-mike

[Nertea]

I'm saying they probably will - just that some units do it already . And yeah, we do have something planned for huorns that should be interesting and fun to play with. It's somewhat similar to your Huorn Walls, but limited in scope.

Edited by Nertea, 27 April 2008 - 08:16 PM.

[Thorin]

@Thorin: That's a good point with the cavalry speed thing. Unfortunately the whole army isn't going to be of equal speed anyways due to the light cavalry being faster... so what do we do? I don't know... I tend to upgrade my units in chunks anyways.

What might happen is that since plans are for the HA upgrade to often reduce the speed of the equipee somewhat, the horse upgrade could eliminate that. That way heores could have a "default" speed that would still be equal to all the other horses' (except the lightest type). Deploying heavy armour on the three types that can get it would slow them down a small amount, then the horse upgrade can be purchased to compensate for that and return the unit to speed equal with the heroes. Royal Guards would have armour and better horses already incorporated, so wouldn't have either upgrade. Does that work perhaps?

It's a nice idea but I think it has a bit of a flaw, in that if the horse upgrade is purchased first then the cavalry will become faster than the Heroes. I think it's vitally important that the mounted heroes are at least equal in speed to however fast the fastest cavalry can go.

If individual batallions do buy the horse upgrade to make them faster, then how about a spell book power for the Heroes? Somewhat similar in concept to Elven Gifts, relatively cheap (2 - 4?), and allows all mounted heroes of that faction to move faster, do more trample damage and have less trample decelerration. Alternatively just make it so that they are upgraded automatically when the upgrade is purchased at the armoury/stable. I do like the idea, though, of heavy armour reducing cavalry speed (slightly) and the upgrade bringing them back up to speed (and the trample things).

Personally I think the best idea is to have heroes auto-upgraded when the upgrade is purchased. As long as the heroes don't get outran by their cavalry at any point, I'm happy The decision is up to you, though, so just my opinion.

[Olorin]

I like the auto-sword-drawing for the Mounted Archers idea.

@ Thorin: the only problem I see with that is that the heroes will get too far ahead of the main force while charging, thus taking more enemy fire and weakening them before the main force can do anything. The thought's good though.

OK, how about this for a spell book power: 'Sound the Charge' - similar to 'Warchant' except that it has a slightly bigger radius (25% bigger? About the size of 'Heal', maybe even bigger?) and instead of a damage boost it gives a speed and trample duration boost for a short time, ideal for big charges. It fits in with the charge of the Rohirrim at the Pelennor Fields. The only problem I see with it is that if combined with Theoden's 'Glorious Charge' then the enemy infantry's pretty much screwed. Other than that, what do you think?

[Thorin]

Personally I don't like the idea of a warchant esque power, there's enough of those 'boost some units for x amount of time' powers out there.

[Olorin]

True, but at the moment I can't think of anything else better. And as far as we know, the only power apart from 'Warchant' with those characteristics is 'Valour of Men' in the Gondor faction, and we don't even know if 'Warchant' will be kept or not. I dunno...

Edited by Olorin, 28 April 2008 - 09:34 AM.

[Nertea]

It's a nice idea but I think it has a bit of a flaw, in that if the horse upgrade is purchased first then the cavalry will become faster than the Heroes. I think it's vitally important that the mounted heroes are at least equal in speed to however fast the fastest cavalry can go.

If individual batallions do buy the horse upgrade to make them faster, then how about a spell book power for the Heroes? Somewhat similar in concept to Elven Gifts, relatively cheap (2 - 4?), and allows all mounted heroes of that faction to move faster, do more trample damage and have less trample decelerration. Alternatively just make it so that they are upgraded automatically when the upgrade is purchased at the armoury/stable. I do like the idea, though, of heavy armour reducing cavalry speed (slightly) and the upgrade bringing them back up to speed (and the trample things).

Personally I think the best idea is to have heroes auto-upgraded when the upgrade is purchased. As long as the heroes don't get outran by their cavalry at any point, I'm happy The decision is up to you, though, so just my opinion.

Now this is where we disagree: It may be good lore to have the heroes always faster or equal to their cavalry speed, but not good gameplay because if they always equal or greater, than sometimes they will be greater. But ugh, then things get confusing. So lets say situation 1, with your layout as I understand it:
1) Initial situation, heroes are equal in speed to cavalry
2) Purchase hero upgrade from palantir: cavalry are now slower than heroes
3) Purchase horse upgrade: cavalry is now equal in speed to heroes
4) Purchase armour upgrade: cavalry is now slower than heroes.
So here in this situation you have heroes moving ahead of the army in 2 situations: earlier game and late game. Only in medium game will they "work".
Now lets go to situation 2 in which you buy the upgrade before the power:
1) Initial situation, heroes are equal in speed to cavalry
2) Purchase horse upgrade: cavalry are now faster than heroes
3) Purchase hero upgrade: speeds are equal
4) Purchase armour upgrade: cavalry is now slower than heroes.
Same endgame situation but even less equal speed time (because the two periods are disconnected). There are technically 2 more situations... where you purchase the armour upgrade before the horse upgrade, this just swaps things around, the endgame situation is identical.

Now, let's look at my idea in comparison:
1) Initial situation: heroes are equal in speed to cavalry
2) Purchase horse upgrade: cavalry is faster
3) Purchase armour upgrade: speeds are equal
Or vice versa, where cavalry speed will be slower then equalize. So at the beginning of the game, where there are no upgrades, speeds will be equal. At the end game they will be as well. If we're really thinking movement speeds should be similar, this is the way to go.

[Thorin]

Your problem, though, of heroes being faster (which is a good thing for me, but a bad thing for you), still exists if the armour upgrade is bought first. All the cavalry would get slower, while the heroes would stay the same - effectively making the heroes faster. Personally I don't see the problems with heroes being marginally faster (and relatively significantly faster for Shadowfax/Glorfindel). I mean in the vanilla game Eomer is marginally faster than the rest of the cavalry - but it never, ever presented a problem for me. I'm not talking about heroes getting to the battle so soon they get slaughtered before the rest of their troops get there, but just so that they are at the front of the queue on the way there. Like a maximum of 10% faster (which is what, I'd presume, is about how much faster Eomer is than the Rohirrim in the vanilla).

[Nertea]

At least the upgrade spacing is player controlled instead of dependant on PP generation. Just... don't ever upgrade one before the other if you have a problem

And I've had tons of annoyances with heroes running ahead and getting toasted, so I consider it a problem for a non individual hero.

[Thorin]

I'm not the one with the problem of upgrading one before the other

I'm quite surprised you've had problems, though, it's not even been a minor issue for me. Difference of opinion, I just wished mine counted

[Lauri]

heroes usually die on me too...

[Nertea]

So yeah.

I have another set of questions to put to people that address Rohan infantry (still trying to think of art for the cavalry, so give suggestions if some of you book obsessed lot want to get "accurate").

1) The Royal Guard will obviously be on horse, but should they be on foot as well? Elite infantry, some people seem to want it but consider that we don't want to impinge upon Westfold's infantry.

2) To that end, peasants. There was some discussion, but there's probably 2 options:
-revamp peasants
-remove peasants and replace with some sort of infantry
First option would involve... what exactly? What would you rather see (graphically I suppose) with the peasants?
Second option - you'd have to make a strong case for it, because Westfold infantry are pretty basic troops - don't want to impinge on them again.

3) Westfold infantry. If anyone remembers what they look like, forget it, as they're likely getting redone art-wise. The question I have here is more gameplay related.
-Helmingas: these were the basic Rohan foot troops that you could use to supplement your army.
-Fastweards: the original purpose of these troops was to be mobile and very good archers with some devious special abilities. The question is therefore: are they redundant as fighters as Lorien is a much more ranged minifaction? If you wanted infantry and archery you would (thematic tendencies aside) probably buy Lorien, and the minifaction as a whole has to compete with the best siege and heavy troops. What can make Fastweards unique and useful?
-Helm's Shields: these don't need changes, but are worth considering in conjunction with my first question regarding Royal Guard: they are elite infantry so the roles may overlap somewhat.
-Dern-deepers: another iffy unit. Originally stealth infantry, but how exactly do sword infantry work with stealth? They can stick around and ambush things I suppose, but how does that make them a cool, attractive buy that outweighs Ents and Elves?

Discuss. I suggest that the staff post their ideas here instead of the staff thread, so we can get a nice open dialogue going, in the interest of good relations.

[m@tt]

There's nothing wrong with the Westfold art well Helm Shields and Erkenbrand can be redone, but the others are fine.

Royal Guards - horde? unit? captain unit?

Peasants - keep em the way they are, I personally never use them, but for quick, cheap access to very basic units that can also fix buildings, they have a use.

Fastweards - considering how many 'repetitive' units Mirkwood has access to, I think they should be kept for their special ability.

Derndeepers look pretty basic units... could they be removed and the art used for peasants (along with the peasant reskins)? Or in terms of making them unique... their axes could make them good anti-siege and anti-buildings?

[Lauri]

I never buy peasants in skirmish, 'cause they look to ugly... That's likely to change though... It it hasn't already... don't know..
But in the campaign I have a couple of hordes of peasants to go with my yeoman archers... Someone's gotta take out the pikemen when I don't have enough rohirrim archers

[Yarrum]

Are the helmingas going to be an anti-cavalry unit, or just basic sword infantry? Also, It would be cool if the peasants could throw rocks.

[Bard]

My opinion:

1) What I noticed with Rohan and its mini-faction is the relative lack of heavy defensive infantry. Sure, Westmark provides Helm's Shields and Lorien provides the Galadhrim (Armoured) Warriors, but those two are more of specialised offensive heavy infantry and archers respectively. Rohan doesn't really have a tank of a unit that can form a "Shield Wall", which they have done in the lore.
-So, I have this proposal (I don't know if it can be done, so let the coders see to that): Instead of creating another separate infantry unit (Dismounted Royal Guard), allow the Edoras Royal Guard to be initially trained at the Rohan Barracks (renamed, and possibly- enlarged Rohan Archery Range) as a final tier heavy infantry unit.
-These dismounted Royal Guard would possess about the same attributes as a slightly less armoured version of the Fountain Guard, but have the ability to form a "Shield Wall" (similar to the Gondorian Fountain Guard) and possibly throw spears (or some other ability).
-As the infantry version of the Royal Guard would have no armour upgrade and only have the "Forge Blades" type of upgrade, Banners, the Shield Wall Formation ability and possibly another special ability (i.e. throw spears), that leaves two more rooms in their palantir. One of these could be used as a "Mount Steeds" purchase (which can only be purchased with close proximity to a Rohan Stable), where these infantry Royal Guard would (after a short delay), be "upgraded" into their mounted versions, which would possess all their mounted attributes annd abilities they currently have, while losing their infantry-based ones like the Shield Wall. Their upgrades would also expand to include those relating to cavalry (upgrade x and perhaps the Horsie upgrade).
-I'm not sure if the Royal Guard should be able to dismount again after receiving their mounts. At any rate both the Dismounted and Mounted versions of the Royal Guard would have access to the same upgrades (except for upgrade X and the possible Horsie upgrade obviously).

*If this idea is impossible or cannot be taken, a dismounted version of the Royal Guards could just be made into a new unit (Meduseld Guard?)

2) I like the Peasants as they are now, though I'd like to hear what the other people have to say. Don't remove them though, they're quite useful as they are for the following reasons:
- They're relatively cheap, easy-to-obtain infantry (they can be trained from any farm!). While not really combat useful initially, Draft makes them decent at least.
- Because they can be trained at any farm, they don't require the player to build large amounts of military structures (which cost resources) to produce them en masse quickly. So if you need a bunch of them for an early game rush or for an emergency defence or you want more infantry to supplement your army, you can just train them from every farm (heck 1 would even be enough if you had lots of farms) you have and gather them together.
-They are the only "Good" units in the game ("Evil" has Orc Labourers) capable of repairing structures. Sure, buildings can auto-repair, but if I'm for some reason short on resources/cash or I just don't want to use any for rebuilding or the auto-repair is just too slow, I can just use my Peasants.

* If there must be a change, you could always remove the Peasants' "Forged Blades" and/or Heavy Armour upgrades, which I am not sure about. Perhaps Draft could make them as combat useful as un-upgraded Helmingas?
* You could also make them free or cost only 50 resources, to have them act as early map control.

3) Westmark Units:

Helmingas
- Remain as Westmark's (and hence Rohan's) 'supplementary well-balanced basic melee infantry'. Let them keep their large assortment of weapons that they had previously (Swords, Axes, Spears) so they can hold their own against both infantry and cavalry (this refers to their long defence of the Gap of Rohan against incursions from both Dunlendish horsemen and foot-soldiers).
- Better combat attributes than Peasants.
- Give them shields when the Heavy Armour upgrade is purchased, alongside the visual change to their mail.
- Allow Helmingas to throw spears and/or stones when garrisoning Battle Towers and/or Ruined Towers (as with archers firing arrows). It seems more realistic than them throwing unlimited spears out in the open, as one could imagine that the towers have barrels of spears and small piles of stones stocked in them for use in defence (as shown in the Hornburg). Perhaps this could also apply to Peasants.

*Allow the Helmingas to be trainable at a Rohan Barracks after an upgrade from the Westmark mini-faction building perhaps?

Helm's Shields
-Remain as Westmark's elite heavy attack melee infantry. Roles of Helm's Shields and Royal Guard will not actually overlap, if the ideas for the dismounted Royal Guard is taken into account, as Helm's Shields are primarily for assault purposes and have poorer defensive attributes in defence than their Edoras counterparts (due to their distinct lack of shields).
-One could possibly join a battalion of Helm's Shields with Edoras Royal Guards to form a formidable company. With the dismounted Royal Guards soaking up the defence and having the HS crash their war-hammers/war-picks down on the enemies' heads.

Fastweards
-Keep them. These are the only Rohirric (as in not Elvish) units specialising in ranged combat, and also mountain combat.
-As their main purpose (lore-wise) is to scale the cliffs and crags of Thrihyrne to keep watch on the valleys and plains below (including the Gap of Rohan), they are portrayed as excellent mountaineers. So let them have the ability to Scale Walls similar to the Mirkwood Thirrad).
-Make them good detector units, more able to see "stealthy" infantry units hiding among trees better than other units.
-Increase their Accuracy attribute far above the other Rohirric ranged units, but lower than that of the Lorien units'. Keep the Fastweards cheaper than even Lorien's Marchwardens (their most "basic" unit).
-Keep their trap laying ability, whether they immobilise, slow or damage enemy units. Useful for chokepoints, openings or passes. Has good potential to be used in concert with Lorien Marchwardens' "Lure" ability.
-No heavy armour upgrade as it would make climbing cumbersome and the clank of chain would draw attention to them, armour remains leather. Perhaps allow down to have a "stealth but immobilise" ability similar to Elven Cloak?
-No banner when "Banner" upgrade is purchased, instead there is a "Captain" unit similar to the Ithilien Rangers and Mirkwood stealthy units. Who brings a banner up into the mountains anyway?

Dern-deepers
- Keep them. Only Rohirric versatile tunnel combat specials.
-Lore-wise they guard the passages and tunnels behind the Hornburg, acting as messengers, scouts and sentinels of the Glittering Caves. Excel in combat in tightly confined spaces and knowledgable in the structure and use of tunnels for both defence and siege.
- Give them the ability to 'Stalk', that is to stealthily move around the battlefield for a period of time. Enemy units cannot detect them until they are really near or until the Dern-deepers attack them. Slightly slower in movement speed when using Stalk ability.
- No heavy armour upgrade for the same reasons as the Fastweards, which makes them agile and fleet of foot. Make them very light infantry capable of keeping up with even cavalry units (faster than other Rohirric infantry units, perhaps equal to Elven ones?). Comparably high melee 'armour' (but weak hp) because they dodge, weak to ranged attacks. Useful as fast anti-pike units.
- Knowledge of foundations and tunnels allow Dern-deepers to quickly assess enemy fortifications for weaknesses and erect temporary shafts underneath enemy constructs and collapse them, granting the Dern-deepers with the "Undermine/Sabotage" ability, which (in game) is portrayed as a powerful medium-duration-recharge close-quarters "attack" that damages enemy walls and/or buildings. Making them a faster and cheaper siege alternative to Fangorn mini-faction units. Combined with 'Stalk', Dern-deepers could just creep up on enemy bases, and Undermine/Sabotage their Walls/Gates. Could even be used in conjunction with the Rohan Battering Ram to draw enemy attention away from it or to supplement the Ram's destructive capabillity.
-Similar to Fastweards when purchasing Banner upgrades (no actual "Banner", gains "Captain")

Edited by Bard, 04 May 2008 - 03:45 AM.

[Foe-of-the-Nine]

my opinion on peasants is keep them as they just re-skin them dramatically... and to those who say they don't really get used very often... all I can say is you don't play on the internet much because thats usually the staple unit for early game for Rohan... I absolutely hate they look of a bunch of fat guys (how did these poor wretches get enough food to be fat) and women (we've already established that women were never drafted for military purposes) coming in and trashing your base... my vote is just reskin them as dudes in just tunics and regular grubby run of the mill shirts and that without any armor or shields... just give them short swords and axes... and then they can do repairing like they already do... just lose the fat dudes and women which is very out of place both according to the books and the movies... so my vote with peasants is to keep them just slightly better than orcs as a sort of farmer militia with wood cutting axes and old heirloom swords (and maybe even some scavenged Uruk-hai swords?) good only for fighting in mobs, easily mowed down by arrows, okay vs enemy buildings, and capable of repairing your base...

[Lauri]

No saws? That's sad.... or not