104 replies to this topic

[tylerman29]

i only use wildmen for suport in destroying farms and forward bases.

[Myrdin]

as i always say - dont like em ? dont buy them !

as for me - BUY THEM ! i liked barbarians since BFME2 (i hated EA for making them just Inn unit, and then in ROTWK, usellesly nerfed them-even their pillage power)

[tylerman29]

i didnt say i dont like em...

[Myrdin]

i didnt say i dont like em...

i newer said, you said "..... (previously said) ", im saiying, what i usually say, when someone complies against something that is fine.

forgive the unusuall amount of word " said "

[{IP} Aridor]

i DONT see a point why a girlish elf should have more health than sturdy little, musculiours dwarf. no matter WHAT you say.
no matter what fantasy you look at, efls are not the durable ones, they ARE sword masters ( i admit ) and elite archers or spellcasters, but the " tanks " are the dwarfs ( what do you expect, living under surface, all day cutting stone and mining, makes you to Terminator ), and humans are somewhere between, good at everything, but not specialists ( really, in every advanced RPG game, or books ) - now i dont want to intimide you, or act " dog like ", this is just a way to interpret my opinion ( if i made you angry, then pls accept my excuse )

as for the uruks - did you see the muscles they were " born " with, most of the normal man hod no such " appearance.
At helms deep, ( now not looking at numbers ) the normal man were slaughtered by uruks.

Imagine Uruk hai, as it is, with such loong combat experience as Gondor soldiers could have - damn, such a fellow would be wery dangerous..
As for the health that you dont like - uruks practically ignore pain, ( lurtz got " handed " and yet he pulled on the sword ). Its the bloodlust that makes them kinda weaker - they fight stronger, but they forget to cover, nor use any battle tactic.
And dont forget, they were breed to be stronger then normal man.

First off, no you didn't make me mad. I love to debate things like this. First off this is not like every other RPG. As for Girlish Elves, that is absured. The only thing girlish is that they tend to have long hair. If we made them true to the book one elf could take on entire horde of orc by himself. For an example of Elvish power, Fingolfin the elvish king was able to fight Morgoth and nearly win. Echthelion of Gondolin fought with Gothmog (the Balrog) single handedly. The elves had a spirit of power. Their very presence would strike fear into orc. When Glorfindel was revealed in his majesty he terrified the Nine and they fled from him into the river. They have a greater spirit then any other creature. This is what I mean by health. A measurement of the inner spirit.
Things like attack should be based on unit strength and the weapon. As far as weapons go Gondor has the best. The long sword is better because it balances slashing with stabbing. The Uruk-Hai axe, ( thats what it is) has only one direction of attack. Where as the Gondor longsword can attack three ways. Cutting both directions and a stabbing motion. Now in game this would translate into faster attacks. Now the huge Uruk-Hai muscles would not be that much of an advantage over a man b/c a man uses mostly a stabbing motion which requires allot less strength. The Uruk-Hai have to swing that large broad bladed ax in a cutting motion all the time. now the Manish armor is ideally suited to absorbing this attack. So to just equal the attack speed and strength of men the Uruk-hai would need overly large muscles. This is what we see. The cutting surface of the broad ax is also not designed well to cut. In all reality the physics of it makes it a bad weapon. So the Uruk-hai strength is in raw beserker rage and numbers. The men would attack faster and just as strong, but would lack numbers. Now that beserker rage could be a power type thing. If you kill like say one unit you go into rage and so long as you keep killing it grows.
The dwarves on the other hand has the best armor and fire resistense. The dwarve was a race that had that same beserker rage. They also had amazing armor. Only the Noldor made better. It was light and strong. The battle ax is slow but powerful. It also avoids the weakness in the Uruk-Hai ax. It would be used more for attacking the neck and legs. Even if you hit that ax against a breastplate at full strength you would not slice through. You would knock them back and down and crush the armor in which would then make it really hard to breath. This then gives the dwarf the time to launch an attack on weak spot like the neck.

[mike_]

Well said.

[Myrdin]

truly


but you missed there something, Uruk hai weapons, are not that much of uselles, if you look directly, - though they cant stab, they use one sharp blade only style ( like katanas do ), but are ( unlike catanas, and scrimitars ), wery bad formed.
I do not agree they are axes, to me they look like hybrids between a sword and halberd - kinda cleaver like . . . oh sorry i wanted to explain earlier, got i bit carried away - the one sharp edge is for cutting, yet there is a thron on the other side, which is made to " pierce " through armor - ( thats why im saing - like halberd ). In medieval age halberds ( and battle hammers ) were used against " HEAVY " armored enemies ( mostly footed knights ) - why ? - the one " sturdy " part ( basically the huge " head " of hammer, or the sharpd edge of halberd ), had only one purpose - tear down - yes indeed, they used this part of weapon to take the enemy down on the ground ( normall armor is around 40kg - noo fun to fall down with this weight ), which basically immobilized the knights - to stand up took pretty loong, . . . . and thats where the " thorn " come in - they pierced the immobilized enemy like scientist pearce a butterfly. The thorn was sharp and loong enough to break through the armor at one particullar place, and deal deadly damage to the enemy.

basically thoose Uruk Hai " cleavers ( it really does look soo ), were sturdy enough to " cut down " the enemy, and if he still lived, they could use the sharp tooth/thorn/horn ( . . . whatever we call it ) to deal the killing blow.

The Uruks beared chainmail, and on it plate mail armor - mostly covering the main part of body ( chest ) and shoulders, as you can see, gloves, and something like sandals on feat ( though it looks more like some wraping ), they didnt use any protection for hands nor legs.


for the dwarfs i have to ask one thing though - did they have no xbowman ? ( though i know this is LOTR, in most games, books and other fantasy related stuff, the dwarfs are pretty advanced - having crosbows, and muskateers, or primitive bombs - this is for example for the " Dwarfs trilogy, or you can see it in Warhammer *not the 40k series*, or in Disciples "
thats why im asking - excuse me for my lack of lore

[mike_]

Dwarves with crossbows - and any other types of machinery - is a generic fantasy concept, just like "girly-pansy-elfs".
As for the weaponry of the Uruk-hai; he means that it's used as an axe - the Uruk-hai sword has a single sharpened, forward facing edge. It's also hiltless and relatively sturdy. As for the spike at the end, it's said in Weapons and Warfare that the Uruk-hai used it to catch the cloaks of passing Riders and bring them to the ground, hamstring a horse, whatever. Though your theory of using it to bash in a small section of plate armour is possible.

[Myrdin]

Dwarves with crossbows - and any other types of machinery - is a generic fantasy concept, just like "girly-pansy-elfs".

when im speaking about something like this i always mean only fantasy stuff, newer even said they are reall

Uruk-hai used it to catch the cloaks of passing Riders and bring them to the ground, hamstring a horse

this sounds COOL, it really does, would be rather awasome to see something like that be implemented into the game ( Uruk Wariors being able to knocback cawalery - of course under certain circumstances - like % chance to do soo, for examle 20% chance to active " hamstring the riders " ability ), but i dont think itll make it in there
( though you must admit it would be awasome to see a rider trying to outflank U.W. and during that, he would be able to take him down just awasome )

Edited by Myrdin, 04 June 2008 - 05:56 PM.

[mike_]

As cool as that sounds, it's more than likely impossible to feature in this game.
As for Dwarven crossbows...if you know it's not Lord of the Rings material, then why bring it up?

[Myrdin]

dunno, arent we just having fun speaking about this and that ?

[Pipo]

in WOW, dwarves are the most implicated faction in the technology. crossbows could reprensent the technologic advance, compare to the bow. Don't you think?

[myster]

crossbows are imo not done for dwarves in middle earth.. the faction that is most ''technologically'' advanced in middle earth is isengard.

[Fyro11]

Hmm, it's difficult to say as Gondor could be said to be very advanced as well, no? And Dwarves in their own right are pretty advanced. They just seem to have less interactions with the rest of Middle-Earth, for the most part, as they lived in caves and mountains.

[mike_]

No crossbows for Dwarves.
EDIT: EVAR!!!!!!

Edited by mike_, 06 June 2008 - 04:34 PM.

[Myrdin]

dont wory mike, i dont plan on to insist on them, actually i like it the way it is ( Isen. as the advanced faction ).
but guys, this is pretty good topic, and the debate sure is interresting ( means - lets keep it on, soo or soo this topic was loong not used )

as for the world of Warcraft ( now referring to the world itself , not WoW ), dwarfes truly were the most advanced race in the terms of technology, goblins were right after them - though theyre " stuff " was kinda unstable, tweaked and dangerous
(goblin suicider unit - guys with HUGE explosive barrel - fawourite speeches - " Where is the map ? I threw it into the lake . . . did you go mad ?! " or " Dont run ! We are your friends "

[Fyro11]

@ Myrdin: Don't you mean Gnomes? I've only played Warcraft 3 and The Frozen Throne. What's interesting is that Tolkien actually wanted to make gnomes/goblins in Middle-Earth amongst the most intelligent beings. This was due to the Nordic word 'gnosis' meaning knowledge. Alas, he didn't because people really don't associate goblins with intellect. On the other hand, Warcraft seemed to actualise that vision in their games.

[mike_]

The Noldor were at first called "Gnomes" in his early works, heh.

[Dalmp]

I half-agree with the OP. Vs the Brutal AI, and orc pit rush is effective (and all too easy) as you can spam the enemy to death before it has time to build counter-units. Vs a player it's not a problem, as the player will likely start with counter units if he knows he is facing mordor. Beating an orc-pit rush is as easy as starting with a stables, or starting with archer production. But vs the AI, an orc-pit rush can be very effective. The Ai isnt even smart enough to close it's gates and mass forces...

I'm not sure if balancing vs the Ai should be the primary goal, but if that is desired, the orc-pit rush could be stopped as easily as raising the orc pit price just a smidgen - to 350 or 375 or so. It wouldn't make a dent in the long-term mordor expenses, but it would make it impossible to build 4-5 pits right off the bat.

As far as the flanking mechanic goes, any faction can flank. It doesn't require spammed units to flank, nor Uruks to defend against flanking. I don't think that's the real problem.

[Myrdin]

nope, gnomes, and goblins in warcraft are two diferent beings.
let me explain ( as for unlike the lore of LOTR, the lore of Warcraft is something that gives me no problem )
in short:

gnomes - are creatures, who like dwarfs tend to live under the earth surface, they are rather weak compared to theyre " cousins ", but unlike dwarfs, who are blessed with inhuman endurance, and great strenght, gnomes are gifted with the power of magic, in the realms of fantasy gnomes are the most elite ilusionist you can find, but in Warcraft, they are skilled in all ways of magic, newertheless, not all gnomes choose the path of magic, and lean more towards science and technology, creating even more complicated, machines than dwarfs - these could be called " tinkers ".
As for the WoW as much as Warcraft, dwarfes and gnomes, really do live togather like brethrens - in WoW the original city of gnomes was destroyed, soo they sought refuge in the glorious IRONFORGE - city of dwarfes.

the main diference between gnomes and goblins - Gnomes are more of natural good race, while goblins tend to be neutral chaotic, and neutral evil.

goblins - with they wicked minds, they create machines as theyre distant relatives ( gnomes ) but mostly, these machines are unstable as the minds of theyre creators. Though efective too, who ever used in Warcraft the Goblin Shredder knows what i mean, goblins were the race that created the cursed black plate mail for the fallen Aspekt of Earth - ancient dragon Nertharilion (sp?) - later in ages also known for his crealty and wishous bloodlust as DEATHWING.
Thus, later on the Goblins offered their service to the Horde after the new leader, Warchief Thrall freed his people and after much strugle ( now refering to the Frozen Throne expansion, and then to WOW ), he establed the city known as Durotar - bearing the name of his father, in hope for new beginning for the Orc Tribe.
As in WoW, the Orcs, have joined up with Island Trolls, and Taurens - basically, for the sake of new pacts.
thoose who played old Warcraft 2 know that horde had before an alliance with Ogres, and Forest troll, but thoose bonds scattered, after the horde was defeted and the Warlocks of Shadow Councel were banished ( mainly only Gul Dan survived, later beying mentioned in ingame animation, with Eye Of Sargeras )
Soo Goblins saw a proftable chance and offered theyre services to horde.

hmm though it took a bit longer than i wanted, i hope i was able to explain the diference, if there s anything more you like to know Fyro then just ask