104 replies to this topic

[mike_]

What does this have to do with Isengard vs Mordor?

[Devon]

Cheers for damlp! An actual on topic post!

[Fyro11]

Like your on-topic post in the Easter Eggs thread?

[Devon]

Yes, actually This thread is months old anyway, so it's kinda useless now. I think we've determined that:

A)Orc spam is effective against ai, but not isengard.
B)If you want to be a successful player, you have to utilize more than one strategy.
C)Any unit can flank.
D)Damlp is finally back!

[Myrdin]

you wrote it in points . . . cool

Edited by Myrdin, 07 June 2008 - 05:01 PM.

[Dalmp]

LoL, sorry guys. I didn't notice I was commiting Threadomancy there haha.

[{IP} Aridor]

Ok first of to reply to a lot of things.

1. The Katana, and other cutting weapons are very ineffective against armor, because it takes to much force to cut the metal. The sword will simply break if you full on smash a full plate breastplate. The cutting weapons were used by nations were their enemies were mostly wearing non-metal armor. Like the asian nations. The Katana is not a good weapon to use against a metal armored foe. It is a mater of physics.

2. The Halbard was used like a can opener. By the time it was implemented the armored knights were wearing such heavy armor that nothing could go through it. How they used a halbard was to first dismount the knight with the pike like point. Then While the heavily armored knight lay helpless on the ground the point and hooks on the Halbard was used to pry open the knight's armor. This was done by inserting the point or hook into the chink in the armor and literally peeling the armor off by breaking the leather straps. When said knight had been pried open he was then smashed with the axe. Most likely in the head b/c the helmet would be the most easily removed piece of armor.

3. The reason the Uruk-Hai were given such a simple and rather primitive weapon was that they fought in a beserker like rage. They were made for one purpose, and that was to destroy Rohan. Now as we see in the film they phsyce themselves up into a blood rage before battle. Now this was a behavior that was typical of certain barbarians in roman times. The beserker tribe was known for this. They also painted themselves with woad which is a phsycotropic drug. But I digress, now the problem with a blood rage is that you aren't very well in control of yourself, thus making it nearly impossible to use an advanced weapon likee a long sword. In such a beserker rage you pretty much just swing your sword in a crazed manner. This is what we see of the Uruk-hai. Now a longsword isn't designed real well for cutting; it is used for stabbing. Now the Uruk-hai were armed with a weapon that was designed for a crazed rage. Their massive muscles and strength allowed the cutting and smashing action of their sword-ax (Which is what it is really) to be effective especially against the lightly armored Rohan troops. Now against Gondor, who's forces were heavily armored in steel and iron, the Urak-hai would be a lot less lethal.

4. The spike would not do much against good steel plate armor like Gondor's, the Dwarves, or the Noldor, in a direct smashing motion like Myrdin suggests. Now against chain mail the spike could do a lot of damage. B/c of chain mails flexibleness it works well against slashing motions but not a small point were a lot of force is directed. Again we see that this is highly effective against Rohan whose choice armor was chain mail.

5. Tolkien says that the Uruk-hai wore iron shoes.

6. The crossbow is not that great of a bow. It is designed for very sort ranges against heavy armor. This is the biggest fault of the BFME series. The crossbow has half the range of a longbow, yet they each have the same striking force. Now the problem with the longbow is that it takes a lot of training to use right, whereas the crossbow is like a gun you just point and shoot. But it can only be accurate over a range of 100 yards. The longbow by contrast can shoot in the hands of trained archer around 200 yards. In game we see the opposite. The crossbow is best used for sieges were you are close to the wall and can shoot right up to the defenders. Like we see at Helm's Deep. The cross bow was one of the few things that could go straight through full plate armor. closer than 50 yards the crossbow could go straight through the middle of a breastplate, which is the heaviest and thickest armor on a knight. In game we see nothing of reality. The crossbows shoot way to far and the Longbows shoot way to short. On top of that a trained longbowman can fire almost ten volleys irann the time a crossbowman can fire two. Again a huge flaw in the game. Now the best bow is the kind we see Legolas using. It is a recurved longbow. Extremely long range, extreme rate of fire, and a huge amount of force on impact.

6. Dwarven ax throwers are stupid. They throw way way to far. An ax thrower can throw an ax like 50 feet. At that range it is very deadly, but at that range.

7. In Tolkien's world the dwarves were master craftsmen in metalworking. The made amazing armor and weapons, along with jewels. Only the Noldor were better. The Goblins were masters of torture machines. Read the chapter "Riddles in the dark" of the Hobbit for more explanation.

8. Finally, this is middle-earth. Not any other fantasy world. Middle earth was invented decades before any other fantasy world. So it is useless to draw on any of those, such as D&D, warhammer, or WOW. Tolkien's world was much more realistic.

[myster]

lol i learned a lot from above post

[Dalf32]

wow... just wow! that was spectacular! very educational (as myster said); you are obviously quite knowledgable.
having said that, remember that we must sacrifice realism for gameplay. this should especially be noted when speaking of crossbows/longbows/axethrowers (and pikes/spears but lets not get into that).
although, i must also note that i dont believe all of the bows used in-game are longbows, as not all bows are longbows.

[mike_]

I have met my match...

Edited by mike_, 10 June 2008 - 02:33 AM.

[{IP} Aridor]

They are longbows. Tolkien says so, and by looking at them we can see that they are. The orcs use simple bows which are the worst kind of bow. The horse archers use recurve composite bow. A very small rapid fire bow. Good for short range rapid fire that is powerful.

[mike_]

And the Gondorian and Noldorin archers uses longbows tailored to the individual archers' height..

[{IP} Aridor]

That is a small matter. The biggest issue is the range and rate of fire problems.

[CIL]

Good rant earlier! Anyways, most standard platemail armour had a weak spot (like Legolas points out in Helm's deep in TTT movie). There is one thing... Tolkien said that chainmail was the armour used and that nobody used platemai/plate armorl... but don't implement that as platemail/plate armor is much more awesome than chainmail. But please do make Noldor and Silvan Elves have better bows... as in reskinning the Lorien/Mirkwood archer bows or giving them a slightly smaller Haldir bow (an actual longbow)... and please also make the Galadhrim and Noldor fire CORRECTLY. The current anims (shooting the bow horizontally) are incredibally uneralistic, do not have anything to do with Tolkien's lore, look bad and back to the unrealistic part... people don't even shoot bows like that. Listen to a modern-day archery instructor or archery historian. They will probably tell you that you CAN shoot like that but that it is less powerful, less accurate and harder to do under ALL circumstances. And I think that you spelled haleberd wrong... both with capitalization and spelling.

Edited by Crazy Intellectual Liberal, 19 June 2008 - 07:20 AM.

[{IP} Aridor]

I saw that I spelled it wrong after. For a the reason that they fired in an arc go over to the good faction development and read the arrow bombard topic. Where did he say that nobody used plate armor? I've read every book more than once, I want to go read that. Oh and by the way plate mail is plate armor OVER chain mail.

[CIL]

Actually, he said it (about the armor issue) in some form of interview or something... something that got online on a forum, Wikipedia, something... I think it was Wikipedia... I don't remember where I heard it or read about it, but it was credible. Anyways, I liked how people looked in the movies better compared to how the books describe them (armor-wise).

Edited by Crazy Intellectual Liberal, 19 June 2008 - 07:22 AM.

[Myrdin]

hmm guys shouldnt this continue in the Arrow Bombard topic rather than here ?

edit: Or in the Elves topic

Edited by Myrdin, 19 June 2008 - 12:43 PM.

[{IP} Aridor]

Elves? Though I do agree we have moved into another area of discourse the elves don't have anything to it.

Crazy, can you get me that link? That would be awesome to hear the genius talk about his own stuff. The movie has a real good look to the armor. I agree, since that is what people see lets model the gameplay off that. That would be my suggestion.

[CIL]

I'll try to find a link. Tolkien said something like Middle-Earth isn't medival in our sence... I think that was it... Anyways, I will have some luck hopefully.

Where I found one thing is in Mike's signature. Lookin the first paragraph of the Arms and Amour of Middle-Earth (excluding the thesis).

Edited by Crazy Intellectual Liberal, 20 June 2008 - 01:41 AM.

[mike_]

Also, you can check the 'Click here for more..." tab to go to a Topic filled more with more helpful links, and I highly recommend "A More Tolkein Gondor" which is a highly thorough and insightful view of Gondor's armaments and military structure.