476 replies to this topic

[Jeth Calark]

Cave-in will only summon two battalions, low-leveled. of what, i haven't decided, probably Rebels. and with no upgrades. and it will be sized appropiately for a level two power.

just looked at the book. it says Treasure Chamber. go with that?

I have the feeling the reason you see more Minotaurs than Cyclopes is that they're more visually oohing and awing to the audience. and the Minotaurs definitely seem stronger.

okay, that's what a Fane is. i'm worried that if I didn't know what a Fane was, not much of anybody else would. unless, of course, a whole bunch of people start commenting they did know what a Fane was.

dont worry about the INI coding. I'm doing (sorta) fine with that!

(i take it then that anything you did not comment on you agreed to?)

[Folca the Hunter]

Cave-in will only summon two battalions, low-leveled. of what, i haven't decided, probably Rebels. and with no upgrades. and it will be sized appropiately for a level two power.

just looked at the book. it says Treasure Chamber. go with that?

I have the feeling the reason you see more Minotaurs than Cyclopes is that they're more visually oohing and awing to the audience. and the Minotaurs definitely seem stronger.

okay, that's what a Fane is. i'm worried that if I didn't know what a Fane was, not much of anybody else would. unless, of course, a whole bunch of people start commenting they did know what a Fane was.

dont worry about the INI coding. I'm doing (sorta) fine with that!

(i take it then that anything you did not comment on you agreed to?)

Alright...Time for me to dust off my debate skills.

Think about it. A cyclops stands over ten feet high! Is that not "oohing and awing" enough to warrant your attention. Still look more in the movie. Take a count of Minotaurs and Cyclopes. I garuntee you you will find more minotaurs. In addition, if the cycopes are as "Brutish" as you suggest, they won't be suitable for basic infantry. Think of how overpowered Mordor would be if Trolls were basic infantry, or Isengard if it had Berserkers as basic infantry. Minotaurs work as elites in the Caspian faction because Caspian's army doesn't contain Ogres or Cyclopes, but these units are just plain stronger than Minotaurs. I think that YOU are a bit too visually awed with the minotaurs. They are cool, but in the Witch's Faction, there are just too many of them to be elites. Think back to the LOTR movies. Do you see more Berserkers than Uruks in the Isengard Army? Do you see more Tower Guards and Ithilien Rangers than ordinary soldiers in the Gondor Army? Do you see more Elves than Rohirrim ultimately in the Rohan Army? Do you see more Trolls and Mumakil in the Mordor army than orcs? NO! In addition, on the note of better training, can a Gondorian Soldier stand a chance to a troll, even though he is better trained? No, because the troll simply smashes him with overpowering brute force. Can a single trained Rohirric Soldier take on something like a Mumak? No, because of brute force. Can a Rohirric Yeoman Archer kill a Berserker? No, because even if the archer is better trained, the Berserker has Brute force on his side. You need to think about the visual aspect of things as well as the realistic aspect.

We can continue to argue that point if you want, but unless you can come out with some spectacular evidence saying we should make cyclopes basic, I will not be moved.

Treasure Chamber is acceptable. It sounds better than Treasure Room does, at least.

As for the Fane, a lot of people who play BFME also play games like Guildwars, WoW, LOTRO, and TES4, Oblivion, in which the term Fane is mentioned over and over again in accordance to ancient evil ruins. Don't be too worried. Many people will know what the term Fane means.

Im glad we see eye to eye on the Cave In power now.

All the other ideas I am fine with. Your move...agree with me, or contest me. Either way, I'll be back with more later.

[Jeth Calark]

okay, i think i understand why we're disagreeing on the cyclopes and minotaurs. We've got different pics in our heads.
the ten-foot tall guys are giants, albeit evil. the one-eyed guys are cyclopes.

Fane is good. If people don't know what it is, that's what a dictionary is for. I'll call it Great Fane, since we already know that the hags were favored.

My thinking:

Edited by Jeth Calark, 31 August 2009 - 10:02 PM.

[Folca the Hunter]

okay, i think i understand why we're disagreeing on the cyclopes and minotaurs. We've got different pics in our heads.
the ten-foot tall guys are giants, albeit evil. the one-eyed guys are cyclopes.

Fane is good. If people don't know what it is, that's what a dictionary is for. I'll call it Great Fane, since we already know that the hags were favored.

My thinking:

Its good to see your determined, but you don't know one thing about me you are about to know. I am captain of my school's speech and debate team. You can continue to fight if you'd like, but just know that once I get started, I rarely lose.

I do know what a cyclops is, and I still have the idea. You are the one with the wrong idea. Even in the native Greek Mythology, the cyclops is larger than a human.

You do realize those cyclopes are KNEELING right? Those giants are more like 20 feet tall. The witch herself is at least 8 feet tall, and so is your average minotaur. The size really doesn't matter at the moment. You need to think of it from a number realism perspective. You still need to count the minotaurs and cyclopes. THEY JUST ARE TOO FEW TO BE REGULAR INFANTRY! In LOTR, If there were more trolls in a mordor army than orcs, then BFME would have made trolls basic infantry, because it only fit to have more trolls than orcs(thank any god you worship that wasn't the case, or Minas Tirith wouldn't have lasted 2 hours!) I positively garuntee you that anyone who watched the movie will stop and think, "I don't recall that many cyclopes in the witch's army." Also, i have a little statistical data. There is a Gaming club at my school, and a number of them I don't personally know are Narnia fans, as well as BFME players. I asked them about thier opinion on which they thought would make better basic infantry, and of the 5, all but one of them said Minotaurs. You may think I'm lying, but I won't hesitate to convince them to make Revora Accounts and post thier testimony personally if you disagree.

I'm sorry to say the evidence you provided was mismeasured, and it simply wasn't enough for me. You will need to drag out something that can prove without the slightest doubt that it would NEVER WORK for having the Cyclopes as elites before my opinion will even be dulled.

Im sorry if i sound stubborn and harsh, but I defend my beliefs unless I can see strong evidence that my beliefs are wrong. When I defend my beliefs, I dig my heels in hard and refuse to give unless I am hit with an utter storm, which in this case would be conclusive evidence. However, I am good at spotting weak spots in evidence, and I can render evidence totally useless unless it is spotless and totally perfect.

Let the battle continue. If need be, I will summon every resource at my disposal, and they are not few. You have been warned.

Regards from Folca.

[Jeth Calark]

Look, dragging this out isn't going to help. It's obvious that we have different opinions on the Minotaurs and the Cyclopes. Arguing which one is elite isn't going anywhere.

Some different options:

There is a third creature called an ogre in the Witch's army. the jailer at Jadis' castle's prison? that was an ogre. pic at the bottom. pretty nasty looking and i think you'll agree he doesn't match up to either the minotaurs or the cyclopes. perhaps we should make the ogres into basic infantry?

for the cyclopes and minotaurs, we could mix them into one horde, or alternate their battalions (buy two battalions, the first is composed of cyclopes and the second is composed of minotaurs). Alternatively, we could give them bonuses toward different types of units.

Final note: i value highly the ideas, support, and work you have put into this mod. I don't want an argument to split our friendship and destroy or delay what is looking like to be a great mod.

Edited by Jeth Calark, 31 August 2009 - 09:59 PM.

[Folca the Hunter]

Look, dragging this out isn't going to help. It's obvious that we have different opinions on the Minotaurs and the Cyclopes. Arguing which one is elite isn't going anywhere.

Some different options:

There is a third creature called an ogre in the Witch's army. the jailer at Jadis' castle's prison? that was an ogre. pic at the bottom. pretty nasty looking and i think you'll agree he doesn't match up to either the minotaurs or the cyclopes. perhaps we should make the ogres into basic infantry?

for the cyclopes and minotaurs, we could mix them into one horde, or alternate their battalions (buy two battalions, the first is composed of cyclopes and the second is composed of minotaurs). Alternatively, we could give them bonuses toward different types of units.

Final note: i value highly the ideas, support, and work you have put into this mod. I don't want an argument to split our friendship and destroy or delay what is looking like to be a great mod.

Well, if we are making the Narnian vanguard with the ratio slightly uneven, I suppose we can do that for Minotaurs and Cyclopes. Why we were too bullheaded (and by we, i mean I) to think of that earlier is beyond me. The one thing I ask is that there be a ratio of like 3 to 1 among them, or at least 2 to 1, since I still maintain there were more minotaurs than cyclopes. However, I do think that this unit should be casted as elite.

As for the Ogres, they definately aren't too bright, but they are still very big, very strong, very mean looking, and probably really don't smell very good. However, they do look like they could throw a rock a good distance, and could tax a gate pretty badly with a Club. I think they would make better seige units than basic infantry, especially since they could never learn to be as skilled a warrior as a minotaur or even a cyclops.

However, There is a creature among the witch's rank called a Minoboar, which kinda looks like a piggish version of the Minotaur. I included a picture in the file at the bottom. It's smaller than a minotaur, and it doesn't look extremely bright. Maybe we could make that a basic infantry unit.

If need be, we could make the dwarfs basic infantry as well as archers, but some people might be disappointed, and think we took the easy way out. I am personally in favor of the minoboar.

[Ring o' Fate]

Hate to say this, but, um, you just lost the debate.

[Folca the Hunter]

Hate to say this, but, um, you just lost the debate.

Hate to say this, but, um, we decided to compromise instead of debate.

I did not lose. Losing is when I give up against my will. Compromising is when we worked it out.

[Jeth Calark]

yeah, let's do that. they'll be a pain to model, but after all that is your department....if you feel like heaping more trouble on yourself, be my guest! not that the minotaurs are easy....

Minobaurs: basic infantry

Monsters: elite infantry. battalions alternate between Cyclopes and Minotaurs

Ogres: siege. weaker than Evil Giants, but good for siege spamming

so far, that is what we have come up with. Sounds good!



Some would say, Ring of Fate, that he did lose the debate, but they're wrong. we resolved it.

Edited by Jeth Calark, 20 August 2008 - 03:37 AM.

[Folca the Hunter]

Two things really quickly.

One, for the Witch's Symbol, how about that evil snowflake (odd sounding) on the top of each of her banners?

Second, What Evil Giants? If you all of the sudden were planning on adding evil giants to the witch's faction, you may have wanted to tell us before now. I was kind of thinking that the Ogres would be the only seige unit, but would be quick compared to most seige units, and somewhat cheaper. Plus, if im Modelling, it will be a total pain to make them look a lot different than the Narnian Giants. The Ogres would kind of make an interesting tactical unit as well as faction appropriate. I don't want to have more on my plate once we reach the witch's faction. The Minotaurs, Minoboars, Cyclopes, Hags, and all the units of the witch is going to be a lot. Making an entirely new giant is just another burden.

[Jeth Calark]

they've been in the tech tree, but i mislabeled them ogres. But we don't have to do them.

Evil Giants dropped, replaced by Ogres. The Ogres should have clubs too.

I'll take a look at the "evil" snowflake. (it's hard to think of snowflakes as evil )

well, good night, i have to go now!

Edited by Jeth Calark, 20 August 2008 - 03:58 AM.

[Ring o' Fate]

Sorry, I never saw a real debate, but then again, I never saw any debates at all!

[Theliah]

You should take the trolls animations and use them with the ogres (armed with a club) so you dont have to animate them.

[Lauri]

I'm mixed on the issue. Yeah, i know I said I was all for it, but truthfully, I just didn't know.

Maybe I should start a poll on the issue. Think that's a good idea?

and as Folca pointed out, they were the secret police. you have to have some secrecy to be secret.

Okay, late reply, but forgot about it..
No, I don't know if you've decided something new on the issue

But yeah, go ahead and make the wolves stealthy and stuff, I don't mind.. But give it reasons, like the "secret police".. Don't go with "They have no stealthy units, let's add some"

Oh, btw... Have you gotten the Tellamorella-whatever units in-game?

edit; Oh, and cyclops are as tall as the minotaurs In the pic posted some posts above, you do see that they bend down so that Miss Freeze can step of whatever chariot she's.. ehm, "riding"..

Edited by Lauri, 23 August 2008 - 11:25 PM.

[Folca the Hunter]

You should take the trolls animations and use them with the ogres (armed with a club) so you dont have to animate them.

We probably will take a somewhat modified troll animation, but the skeletal structure of the ogres and trolls is different. In addition, I do doubt that they do that weird "Bellow into the sky" thing that the trolls seem quite fond of doing.

I see what you mean Lauri in that you shouldn't just add something because they dont have it. Its almost the same as, "Oh, Mordor has no horsemen! Lets add some."

[Folca the Hunter]

yeah, let's do that. they'll be a pain to model, but after all that is your department....if you feel like heaping more trouble on yourself, be my guest! not that the minotaurs are easy....

Minobaurs: basic infantry

Monsters: elite infantry. battalions alternate between Cyclopes and Minotaurs

Ogres: siege. weaker than Evil Giants, but good for siege spamming

so far, that is what we have come up with. Sounds good!





Some would say, Ring of Fate, that he did lose the debate, but they're wrong. we resolved it.

I don't think the battalions of Minotaurs and Cyclopes should alternate. I think the individuals in the battalion should alternate. Because, after all, unlike the Narnian army, the witch's army was all scattered and mixed with each other, so symbolize this disorder with a mixed battalion.

(Good God, will there be no end to Minotaur/cyclops disputes?!)

Edited by Folca the Hunter, 24 August 2008 - 01:08 AM.

[Jeth Calark]

(Good God, will there be no end to Minotaur/cyclops disputes?!)

In order to finally resolve all Minotaur and Cyclope disputes, i am creating a Minotaur vs. Cyclopes mod. then you (Folca) and I can duel it out peacefully on a computer......okay, just kidding!

I don't think the battalions of Minotaurs and Cyclopes should alternate. I think the individuals in the battalion should alternate. Because, after all, unlike the Narnian army, the witch's army was all scattered and mixed with each other, so symbolize this disorder with a mixed battalion.

good point! i didn't think about that. therefore, let's go with that. we'll see if we cant randomize it so that a player has no clue how many of each monster he gets in a battalion.

currently working on the Caspian tech tree, specifically the powers of the summoned Pevensies.

[Jeth Calark]

Sad to say, no Lauri, i have not yet coded those Telmarine units in. Everytime i sit down to mod though, i think of them, so I just might do them just to see them.

I'm working on the mod one faction at a time, and i began with the Narnians. Until i get a copy of Prince Caspian, I'm reluctant to work on either Caspian or the Telmarine factions.

[Folca the Hunter]

I'm working on the mod one faction at a time, and i began with the Narnians. Until i get a copy of Prince Caspian, I'm reluctant to work on either Caspian or the Telmarine factions.

When does Prince Caspian Come out?

[Pixel]

Apparently the release is around december, Info.