218 replies to this topic

[Predi]

My idea of how the Raiders should work is this: they could attack every building that comes into firing range, even while moving. So you can send them through the enemy base and they light up every building they come close enough. Then those buildings would take damage until a worker extingush the fire. That would be really rohan-ish, sweeping across the enemy.... And besides it worked in real life just like that (and I'm sure everyone saw at least one movie where they lit up a whole village in one minute....) But for the fortress it's not the best. As for siege equipment, I'm against every kind of Rohan catapult, battering ram etc. The rohanians were fast moving army. They wouldn't carry anything that would slow them down. So I think the best late-game fortress-killer siege unit would be the Ents. BUT!!! No Ent-moots! I think a summoning power would be suffice. Maybe like 20 points, 4-6 Ents, and most importantly: PERMANENT! that would be enough for the late game. The Raiders could demolish the buildings, and the Ents can deal with the fortress... I think It's very realistic and the most suitable for Rohan.
End of messege.

[Mordor Slayer]

Two problems there:

1) While the idea of the Raiders sounds very cool, I don't think it's possible to have them throwing torches while moving, for the same reason the horse archers can't shoot while moving. Don't ask me any details (because I don't know any), one of our coders can explain.

2) Restricting the Ents to a summon wouldn't be a very wise idea: it's true that we're planning to make all summons permanent, but once they're dead, you'd have to wait quite a long time for the power to reload and to finish of your work.

I'm all in favour of adding the Ents as some kind of summon, but I think we need to consider a 'what if' scenario. Rohan never actually besieged a fortress, and they certainly couldn't control the Ents or ask them to join them, so what if they had to destroy a strong enemy base? They'd probably gather some infantry/levies/yeomans to batter it down.

[Arthadan]

Two problems there:

1) While the idea of the Raiders sounds very cool, I don't think it's possible to have them throwing torches while moving, for the same reason the horse archers can't shoot while moving. Don't ask me any details (because I don't know any), one of our coders can explain.

True, but maybe it would be enough a fire arrows upgrade for mounted and infantry archers. It could be specially destructive against catapults, wall doors and so on (we can assume they throw arrows with oil globes first and then they use the fire arrows).

About Rohan siege, I think fire arrows could take out wall catapults and burn the door (and then a massive cavalry charge, of course). As complements, an ent summon, stairs and battering rams. However, for taking down stone buildings, catapults should be included (unless we have a special infantry elite unit able to plunder buldings and cause them great damage).

Edited by Arthadan, 02 February 2009 - 10:18 AM.

[mike_]

@Mordor Slayer; it's an animation thing.

[Devon]

Rob(38) did it with single units I believe, just couldn't get hordes working.

[njm1983]

Rohan is definately a fast moving hard hitting cavalry army, but in film they never had an opportunity to build siege equipment, like most nomadic civilizations it was constructed as needed. Rohan never had need nor the opportunity as they were fighting a defensive battle, then had to rush off and aid gondor. As far as the Ents are concerned they have no allegiance to Rohan they attacked for the sake of their forest only. Had pippen not tricked treebeard to go south, the ents and huorns never would have got involved, least of all to help Rohan and its people.

The mongols were cavalry based and yet they conducted siege using rams and catapults like any other civilization. Even though their trademark was archers on horseback.

[mike_]

Actually the Mongols used captured Chinese engineers

And the Rohirrim were forced to besiege Orthanc at one point when it was overrun by Dunlendings - however, they did not have any siege equipment, and Gondor was too far way to be of use, so they were forced to starve them out. Which succeeded

[CIL]

Did you know that the Chinese were using mines in naval warfare B.C.? They also used flamethrowers before 1000 A.D.

Sorry for the OT-ness.

Anyways... yes, Mike, as nearly always, is correct.

Edited by Elrond of Imladris, 03 February 2009 - 02:04 AM.

[mike_]

They had a very inefficient short-range flamethrower, yes. And the Korean's had a primitive iron-clad warship. Getting off-topic now..

[Sûlherokhh]

Actually the Mongols used captured Chinese engineers

And the Rohirrim were forced to besiege Orthanc at one point when it was overrun by Dunlendings - however, they did not have any siege equipment, and Gondor was too far way to be of use, so they were forced to starve them out. Which succeeded

Already i am bending my mind around the starvation idea. Current economy mechanics don't allow much in that department. But that may change...

[njm1983]

Yeah and vikings learned to build siege from trade with countries that had it already, but it didnt stop them from using it. and then teaching it to others. there is record of a frank who hired a viking to build him a siege weapon. so blah blah we can go dancing around all night if youd like.

The only point to this discussion was to prove that nomadic and horseback faring civilizations used conventional siege engines to break fortresses.

[ttandchotmail]

Just my two cents but didn't battle for middle earth 1 have a battering ram for rohan? Why don't we just use that as the seige?

[Arthadan]

Rohan wasn't a nomadic civilization! We do know permanent settlements such Edoras or even fortress such Helm's Deep. They were quite well settled in Calenardhon since the time of Eorl the Young. In fact, the eorlings weren't nomadic, they were forced to migrate.


Taking in account they had been neighbours of Gondor since 2510 Third Age (the War of the Ring begins in the 3018 Third Age), they have had plenty of time to learn how to build siege machines (and battering rams don't use advanced technology anyway).

Edited by Arthadan, 03 February 2009 - 09:13 AM.

[Arthadan]

As far as the Ents are concerned they have no allegiance to Rohan they attacked for the sake of their forest only. Had pippen not tricked treebeard to go south, the ents and huorns never would have got involved, least of all to help Rohan and its people.

That was my point to removing them from the Elven faction (in fact both races fought together only in the First Age!!), but it didn't work... so, if it is fair for the Elves, it can be also fair for the Rohirrim.

[njm1983]

Ok im tired of this debate, you folks can nit pick facts, the nomadic refrence was a gneral comparison to vikings, who didnt build settlements for longstanding purposes, but rather chose to construct homes with wood and straw. But im out of this discussion for a while.

[Sûlherokhh]

Think of the Rohirrim as comparable to the Magyar. They where sort of nomadic, entered europe (under population pressure) attacked the holy roman empire, where bought of and granted the lands today known as Hungary and Romania under the formost of the 12 tribes, the Arpad family. With fortifications came siege...

[Jeth Calark]

Just my two cents but didn't battle for middle earth 1 have a battering ram for rohan? Why don't we just use that as the seige?

BFME I did NOT have a Rohan battering ram, unless you were playing some mod. In the vanilla BFME I, the only siege Rohan possessed was Ents.

[Predi]

Since I am Hungarian I should know how we waged wars in the "adventuring years" - as we call it. The Hungarians avoided fortresses, and if they had to seize one, they just starve them out or used flaming arrows to bring the architectures down. Later years when the western civilizations find out the Hungarians tactics they have built more massive fortresses of stone. Then the adventuring years was over. But sometimes we used siege equipment such as the ballista-like "Tormentum".
To Súlherokhh: there were 7 tribes (Nyék, Megyer, Kürtgyarmat, Tarján, Jenő, Kér, Keszi), but no harm done, most people doesn't now what's Hungary and what Europe can thank us for
Thanks for everyone who read this short history lesson
And I still think that the Raiders and Ent Summoning is the best way....

[drogoth232]

if you guys havent decided on a siege machine for rohan remember Jackson based them of the Anglo-Saxons (if i am not mistaken) and in Medieval II Total War i made the Saxons playable (yes i am that awsom... joking! seriously i made it work) THey were almost exactly the same as the English faction. So i guess as Wundi's idea as the battering ram would be an ok idea. But i totally agree with Predi's idea of the Rohan Raiders (that is one of the best ideas i have heard no offense to anybody). So those are some ideas.

drogoth232

PS I cant check the game if someone says "but this is already in the game" i have to get the complete anthology i loset cd 2 so see you guys!

Edited by drogoth232, 03 February 2009 - 09:47 PM.

[njm1983]

Personally I like the raiders idea, but for early siege and only strong against structures of wood. Im thinking Id like a toggle maybe from spears to torchs. Not sure how complex that will make it especially for anims and coding. while throwing the torch is a good idea I think this might be harder to do. Unless maybe a spear throw special weapon could be turned into a torch throw and maybe it could cause fires around the area it lands.