52 replies to this topic

[Emperor of the East]

I thought I colored the things that I added in LIME GREEN to show what needed to be added to what Naz had in mind. That does not automatically mean that every singel part of it is all Naz's or all mine, okay? I jotted down Naz's thing and colored my additions in lime-green. So, the one I'm adding to is this

[Gfire]

Your original Nazgul stuff (the stuff that isn't green) seems to be a little off, though.

Anyways, I think this faction has more than enough units. Though I would like to see more units have a place in it, I don't think it's best for gameplay.

[Dant]

Since SEE is focus to follow movie,I think we already had enough unit just couple more and it finished.

Edited by Dant, 13 October 2009 - 04:31 AM.

[Gfire]

Not sure how many units the other factions have, but this one always seemed to have a lot, to me. I don't see why any more are needed.

[yams in a can]

They seem to be making this faction more powerful than it should be, to me...

[Gfire]

It's impossible to know that without playing it (and balance is far from done.) More units doesn't mean a stronger faction.

[Dant]

True,However i still think it just more couple unit to be added then this faction is finished.

@yams in a can :Resize you signature please,It too huge

[yams in a can]

@Dant, I just got this from the Edain mod, what can I do about the size, and can't I just keep it this way

Edit: How is it now

Edited by yams in a can, 14 October 2009 - 12:02 AM.

[Dant]

Nvm ,It ok now.

[yams in a can]

I liked it bigger though .

[Nazgûl]

Since SEE is focus to follow movie,I think we already had enough unit just couple more and it finished.

Yeah, we have enough units! There won't be any more added to this faction...

Not sure how many units the other factions have, but this one always seemed to have a lot, to me. I don't see why any more are needed.

Rhûn/Harad will be sort of a counterweight to Gondor/Rohan, in a way...

They seem to be making this faction more powerful than it should be, to me...

Don't worry, it will all be balanced. Which does NOT mean however that all factions will play paper/scissor/bag. Mordor will stay very very strong for instance, but... no faction will be unbeatable either.

It's impossible to know that without playing it (and balance is far from done.) More units doesn't mean a stronger faction.

Ecatly!

[Gfire]

Ecatly? Wow, that's interesting.

Anyways, how does the "counterweight" thing work with Rohan and Gondor split?

[Nazgûl]

I type too fast... I meant EXACTLY, but the XA was lost cause I have to HAMMER my keys on this friggin 2000 dollar keyboard to not miss any letters

If we split Rohan from Gondor we have to split Harad from Rhun so if this ever happens it will N-O-T be for this next beta

[Gfire]

Right... I thought you had confirmed the split, but not for the next beta. "Confirmed" in the loose, doesn't-matter-till-later sense, I guess.

[Námo]

Topic: Khand
Issue: Known units according to Tolkien writings.

Khand is a little different than Rhun, but I think it was supposed to be more of a horse archer civilization ...
There isn't much info on the warriors of Khand, though, so I don't know.

Well, there is one, and not an unimportant one: the Múmakil.

Tolkien has stated in The History of Middle-earth, that the names Khand (the land south-east of Mordor) and Variag were samples of "the speech of Men of the East and allies of Sauron". Another Khandian word is mûmak "elephant", pl. mûmakil.

The origin of the Common Speech is here formulated in these words:

There [at Pelargir] Adûnaic was spoken, to which language the tongues of Men that dwelt round about were close akin, so that already a common speech had grown up in that region and had spread thence along the coasts among all those that had dealings with Westernesse.

After typing the text my father added this sentence:

Of the speech of Men of the East and allies of Sauron all that appears is múmak, a name of the great elephant of the Harad.

A carbon copy [of the text] is extant, and here my father in a similar addition named beside múmak also Variag and Khand.

So, the Múmakil is without any doubt a unit of Khand.

It should be noted, that the desert of Lothlann ("wide and empty") separated Khand from the other regions of Near Harad (Harondor, Umbar) and that Khand (unlike those) never were ruled by Gondor.

If one makes a systematic analysis of Sauron's 'geopolitical' strategies in the Third Age (and there really are many small snippets of lore concerning this issue scattered around in Tolkien's writings), Khand will be seen to have a much more important, even crucial, role in Sauron's preparations for his return to Mordor and the subsequent build-up to the War of the Ring.

on the Variags: The most convincing interpretation on these is the one given by Lalaith, e.g. Variags being some kind of 'elite' mercenaries.

Variags ... may in fact be a translation of a Northern Mannish root, for Variag also is a known Slavic rendering of Varingar, Old Norse for „people bound by a contract“, root vár „contract“ (from which the Varangian Guard of the Byzantinian emperors derived). Perhaps the Variags of Khand were not an ethnic group but a kind of elite mercenaries in more or less voluntary service of Mordor.

This interpretation fits well with Tolkien's use of Old Norse as representing (some of) the early Mannish Tongues.

[Arthadan]

Of the speech of Men of the East and allies of Sauron all that appears is mûmak, a name of the great elephant of the Harad.


A carbon copy [of the text] is extant, and here my father in a similar addition named beside múmak also Variag and Khand.

So, the Múmakil is without any doubt a unit of Khand.

I think the quote states quite clearly that the mûmakil came from Harad, but the word itself belongs to the speech of the Men of the East (it doesn't say if it belongs to Rhûn Speech, Khand or some other).

[Gfire]

For SEE, It doesn't really matter where they came from. It will just be called the Mumak and come from the Mumak pen. Doesn't really make a difference whether it is from Khand or not.

The terms Variag and Khand (or Khandian) have been confused, I think. Variags are not all the people of Khand, I guess, but only this group. The current unit, Khand Swordsmen, seems to fit the Variag, Mercenary concept. Perhaps they should be called Variags.

[Dant]

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Variags

Maybe Variags is used to call warrior(mercenaries) from Khand isn't Wainriders are alike them..not the people but kind of mercenary group.

Edited by Dant, 14 October 2009 - 11:46 PM.

[Emperor of the East]

Okay, fine. We won't add the non-wizard heroes and the ONLY new non-heroes we'll add are the Easterling Archers and the Haradrim Spearmen, who are perfectly lorely without anyone's creativity except for Tolkien's. He created LotR, and Peter Jackson brought it to visual life. Oh, since everyone else has an "urban foundation" upgrade, Rhun might as well "go with the flow". The things that people don't want to see in any faction is:

> Lack of variety in versatile unit-classes

> Missing a certain upgrade that anyone but (in this case, Rhun) has.

The Easterlings had their own archers, they did NOT just say, "oh, we need to focus exclusively on melee". Why do you think Tolkien made them so much better than even the Gondorians? Because they were brilliant tacticians specializing in any physically possible form of combat, with Tolkien basing them on "clever-tactics" cultures like the Greeks and Persians.

The same applies to Haradrim having Spearmen, they mostly fight on mounts like horses and mammoths (the Mumakil) and OCCASIANALLY on foot. Should that give them no anti-cavalry defense aside from SWORDS??? No. Why do you think they were able to tear Gondor's Empire down? the Rhunics and Haradrics had a troop for every any-army slot, PLUS, they had chariots and mammoths.

Okay, This is the one that is purely Naz's geography-inspired idea: spans of "artificial" ground that increase production speed by 5% and reduce damage by 10%. Cobble Stone Pavement, Fertile Soil Ground, Mountain Rock Ground, Gravel Pavement, Volcanic Stone Foundation, and Defiled Ground are what I'm talking about, and therefore that just makes way for a "Sandy Steppe Ground" or something similar. I see and impressed that this mod also tries to be as geographically correct as possible, so please don't end it.

>out.

[Dant]

Those basic type of infantry swordmen,pikemen,archer probably available for both Rhûn and Harad,However if we didn't see them all, It didn't make this mod worse at all.

Edited by Dant, 15 October 2009 - 12:29 AM.