461 replies to this topic

[Gfire]

If the siege weapons are minimal and history backs it up I'm okay with that. And obviously the addition of walls to Athens and not Sparta will help to diversify them greatly. Sparta could perhaps have weaker watchtowers only. I don't think the walls should have a lot of addons, though. Towers can just be build right behind the wall, and gates should be enough otherwise. I don't really like the idea of catapults on the walls and other really strong defenses. I think that would encourage the construction of too many siege weapons.

And also if gates could be separate from gatehouses, and rams could only attack gates, then you could repair the gate, much like in BFME1, then a ram would have a really different purpose from a ballista, which would be mostly useful for out-ranging towers.

And perhaps towers could only shoot while garrisoned, but villagers could also garrison perhaps. The tower would be stocked with ammo I guess so melee units could attack from it. The fortress could also have no attack but have a garrison the same way, which would be like age of empires, you could garrison your villagers in order to protect your town from rushes.

Also, to make a Ballista nearly useless against units you could not give it splash, and a 0% accuracy. Any moving target would be nearly impossible to hit, and it wouldn't be very effective against units anyway (and bonus damage to buildings if necessary.)

These ways you could make sure that the infantry are the focus.

[Kwen]

I've spent the last few hours working on a model. Lauri and I were talking and concepts were flashed around, and this image really inspired me.

So I began to model it.

I've got this so far:

[Gfire]

Wow, really nice!

I love the freedom from TC mods... We have no obligation to reuse anything EA made, and it's quite lovely.

What's the poly count on that?

[Mathijs]

That looks pretty sharp. The feathers could be a little sharper, though.

Edited by Matias, 03 November 2010 - 05:45 AM.

[Kwen]

Poly count is currently 864.

I took the EA CaH haradrim model and used a max plugin I downloaded called Polygon Cruncher, which was able to reduce it (With some work fixing things by cutting a lot of new edges in)

So I would have a low poly human model (Not a silly orc or uruk..) that will fit very well in Greek armor.

[Gfire]

Oh nice. That's perfect.

I suppose we will be using housecolors, at least I'd like to if possible. I guess anything which would ordinarily be red would be housecolor.

I'm not sure if all the nose and face detail is really necessary, with the helmet there.

[Kwen]

Well I left it intact because if I want to make a variation with a different helmet, I don't have to remodel the entire head, just make a new helmet, and slap it on.

Really it only saves 50-100 polies.. Which isn't all that much considering.

[Taralom]

Sorry to bring this up if it's already mentioned, but have you considered a different recruiting system for athens and sparta?

The spartans would make heavy use of the regular barracks, and would come out equipped.
The athenians could start off as villagers, and be upgraded in special tasks, such as hoplites or peltast.

I personally feel that this would give them a more genuine feeling and that this reflects their individual differences.

[Kwen]

I did some more work.

The skin is totally a throw-together. Will be redone by hand at a later time. This is just to give you guys a feel of how it will look in the end.

The model is 1048 polies.

[_Haldir_]

They look awesome.

I wish i could model that quickly. Or at all

[Lauri]

For those thinking marching -> running if you attack could be exploited;
Well it can, kind of. But, IIRC, you have to see the enemy to attack him, and unless you have a scout or another unit where the enemy is, there's no way you'll be able to actually click on the enemy units, just attack-move.
That's why a cavalry scout would serve a purpose in the mod, and not just be something you'd never use.

Besides, if one side attacks the other in it's base because they ran there, wouldn't they be at a disadvantage because of the base defences against them? (atleast Spartans would)
I know I'll march my troops.. just because it's probably going to look sweet!

[Kwen]

I had thought that too. That with this gameplay, being able to run your army might not be a good idea.

[Sauhron]

Amazing!

One question though: Will this mod be all about the Peloponnesian war? Because something from the Persian Wars (499-449 BC)
could be very interesting, e.g a persian faction. (Sorry if this has been asked already).

[Lauri]

I think we'll stick with the Peloponnesian War in the first place I've even named my own mod folder for it The Peloponnesian War.
Of course, if we ever get to the point where both Sparta and Athens are pretty much done, I wouldn't mind checking out the possibility of adding a persian faction, but that is in the distant future, and likely not to happen

Btw, the Inns already in game.. could we (by changing the model probably) work out a mercenary system? Or, not really a system, but you get the idea.. What possible mercenaries could we include? Did they even use mercenaries at the time? I don't think Spartans did, but not sure about Athens..

[Spartan184]

For Spartans couldn't you do it so once they capture it generates resources since they would prob force the people there to work for them?

[Sauhron]

Maybe spartans could recruit Helots from inns?

[mike_]

Historically speaking, Sparta never used mercenaries that I know of, while Athens used them extensively to supplement their military.

I don't think that it would be a good idea to use the Inn (which should really be redesigned model-wise, by the way ) as the only source of more Helots for the Sparta faction, but maybe as an addition to their 'natural' source it could work very well.

In terms of mercenaries for Athens, here are some possibly interesting ideas:
-Barbarians. These would typically be Gauls, Celts, or any of the many 'barbarian tribes' to be found in Europe at the time. Mathijs is more familiar with them than I am. Off of the top of my head, they would use hand axes, slashing swords, and slings as primary weapons.
-Cretan Archers. The best archers in all of Greece, they often sent out bands of bowmen to all corners of the known world seeking gold and glory (interestingly, this was a common practice across Greece - including in Sparta!). Alexander the Great fielded huge companies of them in his conquest of Persia.
-Thracian Falxmen. These would be guys usnig the falx - a massive, two-handed war-scythe that could cut through just about anything in its path. Including Roman shields...

Also, that model looks great, Kwen. Something you may want to take into consideration: 'normal' Hoplites would have the forward-facing crest, while anyone in command (captains, generals, what have you) would have a crest running horizontally along their helmets to show them distinctly on the battlefield.

[Mathijs]

Maybe spartans could recruit Helots from inns?

No, that doesn't make any sense. Spartans getting their slave workers from an inn? No.

Also Mike, please note that the Gauls were Celts.

Edited by Matias, 03 November 2010 - 04:00 PM.

[Gfire]

As far as the running/marching system goes, the main issue is retreating. It's always been an issue with the trolls. You can't retreat at a decent pace. This would make any movement that wasn't a direct attack make you move slowly, which means you won't be able to pull back your skirmishers in order to fire at enemies from a distance (that is, if they have longer range and movement speed they should be able to kill an infinite number as long as they can move quickly while moving away from the units, but of course will get killed by any lightly armored melee unit which can catch up.) And you also can't retreat from any battle that isn't going well. This basically means all you can do in a battle is attackmove and target different hordes, and you lose a lot of depth of gameplay.

The models look great BTW, can't wait to see them fully skinned.

About the inns and other captured buildings, it might work to make Athens be able to get mercenaries but Sparta get slaves which increase economy. It would basically be strengthening the weakness of either faction, like Athens has stronger economy and Sparta has stronger military, but Athens can get Mercs and Sparta can get slaves, so there would be a lot of tension to hold the buildings. There probably should only be a few per map and we wouldn't need all four types of buildings, maybe just inns and shipwrights. And they wouldn't have to stay Inns of course but some sort of structure which allows getting people from far away places.

As far as the scouts go, perhaps we should design the game in a way to make scouting and map vision more important. Both scouting your enemy's base and just having vision of the map to know where their army is. Raiding the economy is one way this could be effective. You need to know where their units are and see them coming in order to defend your economy which is spread out a fair bit, and if their army is moving towards one side of the map you could raid the other end where they can't get to in time.

Are Gauls considered Celts? I wasn't aware of this.

[Sauhron]

Maybe spartans could recruit Helots from inns?

No, that doesn't make any sense. Spartans getting their slave workers from an inn? No.

A helot could also fight as a servant to a spartan soldier, and could get his freedom this way. Though maybe recruiting them from an inn is not a good idea.
Instead you could recruit them from farms (or whatever they are called in the mod). Giving them a passive ability that boost your economy (minimally) could also be pretty interesting as they were the ones that supplied food to the spartan army and kept the economy functioning.

Edited by Sauhron, 03 November 2010 - 04:33 PM.