853 replies to this topic

[Toveena]

Crap Tanks, crap Siege, crap T3 tanks, crap Helicopters, crap Jets, crap Mercury uplink, coupled with crap SEALs, costly Legionnaires.. Not sure about the Aeroblaze though. Tanya is good.

But I still play USA every single time, no exception(o゜▽゜)o☆

[X1Destroy]

Crap Tanks, crap Siege, crap T3 tanks, crap Helicopters, crap Jets, crap Mercury uplink, coupled with crap SEALs, costly Legionnaires.. Not sure about the Aeroblaze though. Tanya is good.

Abrams Tanks are too expensive, yes.

Basswave is only too specialized, I agree to an extend. It's good against buildings though.

Warhawks are rubbish when fighting vehicles.

Stormchildren is crap? NO.

Mercury could have been better, but not bad at all.

SEALs are nerfed, and yeah it isn't as good as before.

Aeroblaze? Yeah it's good against stuffs like Kirovs, but Wolfhounds still kill them fast. And SCUD fly faster than theirs laser. Sentinels is down right superior.

[RP.]

Crap Tanks, crap Siege, crap T3 tanks, crap Helicopters, crap Jets, crap Mercury uplink, coupled with crap SEALs, costly Legionnaires.. Not sure about the Aeroblaze though. Tanya is good.

 

It seems someone has trouble winning some games 

[lovalmidas]

The lightest factions (US, Scorpion Cell) do kind of rely on the fact that the enemy's army is not fully supported (a.k.a. all units in their arsenal). Their counters are powerful against their intended units (Oxidizer, Basswaves, Warhawks). They are however much weaker against armour. But enemies of those factions must be wary of any flanking moves they might face, but encounter the "YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US/SC" scenario.

Chances are that a US / SC player is likely to be disadvantaged if they let their enemy accumulate a varied force.

[UprisingJC]

 

The lightest factions (US, Scorpion Cell) do kind of rely on the fact that the enemy's army is not fully supported (a.k.a. all units in their arsenal). Their counters are powerful against their intended units (Oxidizer, Basswaves, Warhawks). They are however much weaker against armour. But enemies of those factions must be wary of any flanking moves they might face, but encounter the "YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US/SC" scenario.

Chances are that a US / SC player is likely to be disadvantaged if they let their enemy accumulate a varied force.

Does it mean that an U.S player actually has no chance against subfactions like China(Nuwa + Sentinels + EMP units) and Russia(Wolfhounds + SCUD Launchers + Tesla Cruisers) if the match lasts too long?

 

That may also mean that rush may be the best choice for all types of matches except FFA for the side that has at least 1 U.S player while the opposite side are non-US subfactions.

[lovalmidas]

Personally, I would rate both countries as follows:
 
US
Anti-infantry power: **
Anti-armour power: **
Anti-airforce power: *** 
Siege power: ****
Economy: ***
Map Control: *****
 
SC
Anti-infantry power: ****
Anti-armour power: ***
Anti-airforce power: ***
Siege power: **
Economy: ***
Map Control: *****

The US has poor anti-spam capabilities (just count the number of its area damage weapons including the generic Allied ones). They have to rely on being able to get to everywhere in the battlefield, and secure map control fast. Warhawks are great for map control. The Chronosphere-Basswave combo is a great friend for the US.
 
The SC has better anti-spam capabilities, better anti-armor (Speeders vs slow armor, Tyrants vs typical armor, Brutes vs OmniCrush resistant armor, add in some Adepts), and anti-infantry (Duneriders, Plague Splatter, Tyrant). They have piss poor artillery though. SC players can attempt to mask its weak armor by having Brutes + Archers. US players have less of such choice.
 
US and SC can still survive in a longer game, provided they keep their enemies occupied and harassed. The success of a rush strategy depends a lot on the target (his subfaction, and his mentality). SC vs US rushers can definitely keep toe to toe of one another.

Edited by lovalmidas, 13 January 2014 - 01:25 PM.

[UprisingJC]

Personally, I would rate both countries as follows:
 
US
Anti-infantry power: **
Anti-armour power: **
Anti-airforce power: *** 
Siege power: ****
Economy: ***
Map Control: *****
 
SC
Anti-infantry power: ****
Anti-armour power: ***
Anti-airforce power: ***
Siege power: **
Economy: ***
Map Control: *****

The US has poor anti-spam capabilities (just count the number of its area damage weapons including the generic Allied ones). They have to rely on being able to get to everywhere in the battlefield, and secure map control fast. Warhawks are great for map control. The Chronosphere-Basswave combo is a great friend for the US.
 
The SC has better anti-spam capabilities, better anti-armor (Speeders vs slow armor, Tyrants vs typical armor, Brutes vs OmniCrush resistant armor, add in some Adepts), and anti-infantry (Duneriders, Plague Splatter, Tyrant). They have piss poor artillery though. SC players can attempt to mask its weak armor by having Brutes + Archers. US players have less of such choice.
 
US and SC can still survive in a longer game, provided they keep their enemies occupied and harassed. The success of a rush strategy depends a lot on the target (his subfaction, and his mentality). SC vs US rushers can definitely keep toe to toe of one another.

 

So an U.S player shouldn't go for T3 too fast. 

Stay on T2 for a bit longer and build strategy center before the tech center.

[Protozoan]

 

 

Crap Tanks, crap Siege, crap T3 tanks, crap Helicopters, crap Jets, crap Mercury uplink, coupled with crap SEALs, costly Legionnaires.. Not sure about the Aeroblaze though. Tanya is good.

 

It seems someone has trouble winning some games  

 

 

Never once lost to a USA player in all of my MO experience.

 

 

Crap Tanks, crap Siege, crap T3 tanks, crap Helicopters, crap Jets, crap Mercury uplink, coupled with crap SEALs, costly Legionnaires.. Not sure about the Aeroblaze though. Tanya is good.

Abrams Tanks are too expensive, yes.

Basswave is only too specialized, I agree to an extend. It's good against buildings though.

Warhawks are rubbish when fighting vehicles.

Stormchildren is crap? NO.

Mercury could have been better, but not bad at all.

SEALs are nerfed, and yeah it isn't as good as before.

Aeroblaze? Yeah it's good against stuffs like Kirovs, but Wolfhounds still kill them fast. And SCUD fly faster than theirs laser. Sentinels is down right superior.

 

 

Okay, Stormchildren can engage other Aircraft which is good I suppose, but don't they do the least damage or something, as opposed to the Black Eagle or Harrier?

 

The lightest factions (US, Scorpion Cell) do kind of rely on the fact that the enemy's army is not fully supported (a.k.a. all units in their arsenal). Their counters are powerful against their intended units (Oxidizer, Basswaves, Warhawks). They are however much weaker against armour. But enemies of those factions must be wary of any flanking moves they might face, but encounter the "YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US/SC" scenario.

Chances are that a US / SC player is likely to be disadvantaged if they let their enemy accumulate a varied force.

 

The US has poor anti-spam capabilities (just count the number of its area damage weapons including the generic Allied ones). They have to rely on being able to get to everywhere in the battlefield, and secure map control fast. Warhawks are great for map control. The Chronosphere-Basswave combo is a great friend for the US.

 

US and SC can still survive in a longer game, provided they keep their enemies occupied and harassed. The success of a rush strategy depends a lot on the target (his subfaction, and his mentality). SC vs US rushers can definitely keep toe to toe of one another.

 

Not entirely sure how i can see the US being a harassment faction, Allied units don't really support it, well except for Rocketeers, the Bulldogs & the Stryker I suppose? But then you look at something like Latin Confederation, and their units generally support harassment, the Mortar Quad is great, the Terror Drone, the Jaguar, and all their cheap Infantry like the Conscripts & Flaktroopers along with Pyors, the Vulture and the Buratino.

 

Allied Infantry has weak armor and is expensive, Soviets can afford to lose their Infantry half of the time.

 

I don't really see how Warhawks are good for map control, they're too weak to hold anything against anything lol, and the Chronosphere and any Allied Siege unit is good though...

 

Maybe the USA would be effective against Latin Confederation & possibly Scorpion Cell, and perhaps Pacific Front (If they don't let them reach T3). But against China & Russia, that would be a difficult match.

Edited by Protozoan, 13 January 2014 - 07:53 PM.

[Toveena]

High price for maneuverability on Abrams? Fine, keep the current stats and just simply +1 weapon range pls, atm it can't even reach tesla cruiser. 

[Protozoan]

Just tested the Pyro vs the Navy SEAL, they're as good as each other when it comes to killing Infantry :|, they both killed each other at the same time.

 

8 Flaktroopers & 6 Conscripts vs 1 Battle Fortress with 1 SEAL & 3 GGI's, Soviets win, tfw no need for Tesla Troopers because Flakkies

 

2 Tsurugi's with 2 SEALs versus 8 Flaktroopers & 6 Conscripts, Soviets win, losing only half of their troops.

Edited by Protozoan, 13 January 2014 - 09:25 PM.

[fff]

I agree. Both Pacific front and the Americans after focusing on playing them are kinda weak compared to the other factions (mainly China and Russia) In one battle i was USA against a china player, I rushed with bulldogs to harass but it was defeated so i decided to focus in economy and tech up. China never attacked me so i proceeded to tech up but that was a big mistake i had done and by then China had teched up as well. There was nothing i could do from then when the china player was turtling in the base.It was extremely hard near impossible to defeat when he had the Centurion sieging my base with Nuwas and sentinels guarding it, believe me i tried but everything i got were out ranged by Nuwas (so long range, they seem like artillery units,) and the Centurion. My airforce was outright destroyed by the sentinels, and my Abrams instantly Annihilated by the Nuwas without firing a single shot! Even though it was a huge error letting China reach to T3 it still shouldn't punish me so hard when we both are at the same tier. Even when we are both in same level China have always an advantage when they are at its peak T3. At its own Warwhak does laughable damage against vehicles, and do not do much damage at all against buildings, they are not good at ambush/harassing at all, only against infantry they are ok. Only when i had a several warhawks with rocketeers they were decent but still expensive, when i could be doing something else.

 

High price for maneuverability on Abrams? Fine, keep the current stats and just simply +1 weapon range pls, atm it can't even reach tesla cruiser. 

At the moment they have Range: 6.25 / 6.25 , i agree about buffing their range, what about to increasing it to 7

Edited by fff, 13 January 2014 - 09:11 PM.

[Speeder]

8 Flaktroopers & 6 Conscripts vs 1 Battle Fortress with 1 SEAL & 3 GGI's, Soviets win, tfw no need for Tesla Troopers because Flakkies

 

2 Tsurugi's with 2 SEALs versus 8 Flaktroopers & 6 Conscripts, Soviets win, losing only half of their troops.

 

And those BFRT and Tsurugis were doing what, standing still? They can roast all that infantry before it even reaches the tanks with fire-on-the-move.

 

Also Tesla Trooper is immune to dogs, uncrushable and is generally stronger than Flak Trooper so it is kinda worth a lot. Plus they have sensors.

[Protozoan]

 

8 Flaktroopers & 6 Conscripts vs 1 Battle Fortress with 1 SEAL & 3 GGI's, Soviets win, tfw no need for Tesla Troopers because Flakkies

 

2 Tsurugi's with 2 SEALs versus 8 Flaktroopers & 6 Conscripts, Soviets win, losing only half of their troops.

 

And those BFRT and Tsurugis were doing what, standing still? They can roast all that infantry before it even reaches the tanks with fire-on-the-move.

 

Also Tesla Trooper is immune to dogs, uncrushable and is generally stronger than Flak Trooper so it is kinda worth a lot. Plus they have sensors.

 

 

no, they were not, the BFRT was attempting to run over the Infantry, the Tsurugi's barely even got a chance to move around, it got blasted to pieces.

 

Tesla Trooper may be immune to dogs and is uncrushable, but when you have 4 Flaktroopers for each 1 Tesla Trooper you could have, they do a hell of a lot more damage than the Tesla Trooper, all a smart opponent has to do is use the Scatter command to get their Infantry out of the way from being crushed, unless it's a tank rush, which then, the tanks would probably still be very weak, the Jaguar, Bulldog & Mantis will get destroyed quickly, the medium Tanks may fare better, but then the Heavy tanks are too slow. Why use the Tesla Trooper for sensors when there are Borillos, which has the price equivalent of 2 Tesla Troopers, and is far tougher?

[Black/Brunez]

Just tested the Pyro vs the Navy SEAL, they're as good as each other when it comes to killing Infantry :|, they both killed each other at the same time.

 

8 Flaktroopers & 6 Conscripts vs 1 Battle Fortress with 1 SEAL & 3 GGI's, Soviets win, tfw no need for Tesla Troopers because Flakkies

 

2 Tsurugi's with 2 SEALs versus 8 Flaktroopers & 6 Conscripts, Soviets win, losing only half of their troops.

 

So... Flack Troopers are effective against armor?

 

[Protozoan]

 

Just tested the Pyro vs the Navy SEAL, they're as good as each other when it comes to killing Infantry :|, they both killed each other at the same time.

 

8 Flaktroopers & 6 Conscripts vs 1 Battle Fortress with 1 SEAL & 3 GGI's, Soviets win, tfw no need for Tesla Troopers because Flakkies

 

2 Tsurugi's with 2 SEALs versus 8 Flaktroopers & 6 Conscripts, Soviets win, losing only half of their troops.

 

So... Flack Troopers are effective against armor?

 

 

 

 

Obviously I'm implying that they're perhaps too good against Armor, they outclass the Tesla Trooper because they're so cheap and deal more damage for the price of Tesla Troopers. They're too fucking good against vehicles.

[Admiral_Pit]

Actually there has been something that worries me.  I know that there will be a nerf on Tech Rushing soon (which we need... *glares at God and his generic Volkov+Kirov Rush*), but I worry that Epsi sides still will have an upper hand at getting to T3 much faster due to Bio Reactors + Dogs/Initiates long before other factions can get to their T3.  If that is the case after a while of playing the upcoming patch, and should they be teching too fast, do you think the Bios should provide even less power per unit in it, or some other method to keep em from teching too fast?

Edited by Admiral_Pit, 13 January 2014 - 11:52 PM.

[mevitar]

Indus-plant > Ore purifier.

Actually, i was wondering why nobody complains about Cloning Vats being OP. For 10k of cash, you can have 20k worth units, and if you grind the free ones, you get 5k back. For me, Cloning Vats > all.

This shouldn't be compared directly, though, because while Industrial Plant lowers cost and build time, it affects vehicles only. Ore purifier actually allows you to have either more infantry, vehicles, aircraft or buildings. Whatever fits your needs at the moment. For the Soviets and Epsilon, at late game you're pretty much forced to play a certain style, to benefit the most from your economy booster.

There is one issue with ore purifiers, though - they don't affect money from Oil Derricks. On maps with a lot of ore, Allies will be swimming in cash (especially if they get the gems after getting the purifier). However, the more they have to rely on Oil Derricks, the higher the advantage of the other sides will be. Maybe it should give slightly more cash than other economy boosters do...
 

Norio. Norio is a little bit too weak, and he has crap range, he can't really be used with my main force because he'll get shot down so quickly by even the most basic AA, yeah I can use him to harass the opponent, maybe take out an important structure or two before they can kill him, but if the opponent builds some AA that can defend each part of the base, then he is useless, I think overall perhaps he needs a buff.

Norio is a type of unit that can't deal with lots of units attacking him, but when there's nothing able to hit him at all, he can win the game in a moment. He's already been buffed and nerfed repeatedly because he's constantly either too OP or too weak. There's no middle ground with him. You can expect more repeated buffs and nerfs for him in the future, unless his weapon and his role would get totally redesigned (but then, no more fast, hard-hitting Norio).
 

Just tested the Pyro vs the Navy SEAL, they're as good as each other when it comes to killing Infantry :|, they both killed each other at the same time.

Except that SEAL can also swim, has sensors, can C4 naval units and even one of them in your base in early game means it's gg for you. This way i could attack Conscripts with Hammer Defense and a Tesla Coil, and then complain that Hammers are too weak.
If anything, they should be compared to Ivans, and unlike Ivans, they can defend themselves against dogs and also plant C4 un submerged units.
 

I agree. Both Pacific front and the Americans after focusing on playing them are kinda weak compared to the other factions (mainly China and Russia)

I understand why people feel that Kappas are weak, but PF as a whole is far from being weak, especially since they have stuff that can actually deal with Russia and China doing their usual routines (yes, i'm looking at you, Wolfhound/Nuwa spam). They just require more micro, but i think that's a playstyle thing.
 

Tesla Trooper may be immune to dogs and is uncrushable, but when you have 4 Flaktroopers for each 1 Tesla Trooper you could have, they do a hell of a lot more damage than the Tesla Trooper

You can also have 1 Dog per each Flak Trooper the enemy has. There's no way those few Teslas will be able to kill that many of them. If you would use more dogs, the enemy would stop spamming Flak Troopers quickly.
Their damage itself, i won't comment on it. But then, someone might also want to see how a group of Flak Troopers killed Zenothist's Abramses on one of the streams, and i don't think all of it was Zenothist's fault.

Edited by mevitar, 14 January 2014 - 12:13 AM.

[Protozoan]

Excellent points.

 

 

Indus-plant > Ore purifier.

Actually, i was wondering why nobody complains about Cloning Vats being OP. For 10k of cash, you can have 20k worth units, and if you grind the free ones, you get 5k back. For me, Cloning Vats > all.

This shouldn't be compared directly, though, because while Industrial Plant lowers cost and build time, it affects vehicles only. Ore purifier actually allows you to have either more infantry, vehicles, aircraft or buildings. Whatever fits your needs at the moment. For the Soviets and Epsilon, at late game you're pretty much forced to play a certain style, to benefit the most from your economy booster.

There is one issue with ore purifiers, though - they don't affect money from Oil Derricks. On maps with a lot of ore, Allies will be swimming in cash (especially if they get the gems after getting the purifier). However, the more they have to rely on Oil Derricks, the higher the advantage of the other sides will be. Maybe it should give slightly more cash than other economy boosters do...

 

I don't really know much about the economy boosters, so I will not make my up mind about them yet.
 

Norio. Norio is a little bit too weak, and he has crap range, he can't really be used with my main force because he'll get shot down so quickly by even the most basic AA, yeah I can use him to harass the opponent, maybe take out an important structure or two before they can kill him, but if the opponent builds some AA that can defend each part of the base, then he is useless, I think overall perhaps he needs a buff.

Norio is a type of unit that can't deal with lots of units attacking him, but when there's nothing able to hit him at all, he can win the game in a moment. He's already been buffed and nerfed repeatedly because he's constantly either too OP or too weak. There's no middle ground with him. You can expect more repeated buffs and nerfs for him in the future, unless his weapon and his role would get totally redesigned (but then, no more fast, hard-hitting Norio).

 

Norio seems like he is only useful when your opponent isn't paying attention, if he forgets to build AA in one part of his base, then he could get hit hard, I have usually only be able to take down 1 or 2 buildings with Norio before opponent kills him or I am forced to make him retreat, then there isn't much use for him for the rest of the match, unfortunately, due to all the microing I don't really often get to take advantage of these situations, I could lose all my units in the blink of an eye if I'm not paying attention to them for longer than 20 seconds. But I think most veterans will know exactly how to counter Norio, they just build some AA defenses and I can't really touch their base, then they use a few AA units to cover their mainforce and then.. I can't use him because his range is too short, and I often find him getting shot down while I'm trying to get him into a good spot within my forces.
 

Just tested the Pyro vs the Navy SEAL, they're as good as each other when it comes to killing Infantry :|, they both killed each other at the same time.

Except that SEAL can also swim, has sensors, can C4 naval units and even one of them in your base in early game means it's gg for you. This way i could attack Conscripts with Hammer Defense and a Tesla Coil, and then complain that Hammers are too weak.
If anything, they should be compared to Ivans, and unlike Ivans, they can defend themselves against dogs and also plant C4 un submerged units.

 

That is true, but I find that the Navy SEAL seems to be the only reliable Anti-Infantry unit I could rely on, GI's & Rocketeers simply don't cut it, Blizzards are too expensive and aren't doing enough damage, Hailstorms can be effective, but they have a very slow ROF, the Crazy Ivan is specialized for destroying bases or bridges, usually he won't have much use on the battlefield.
 

I agree. Both Pacific front and the Americans after focusing on playing them are kinda weak compared to the other factions (mainly China and Russia)

I understand why people feel that Kappas are weak, but PF as a whole is far from being weak, especially since they have stuff that can actually deal with Russia and China doing their usual routines (yes, i'm looking at you, Wolfhound/Nuwa spam). They just require more micro, but i think that's a playstyle thing.

 

They may be capable of dealing with those factions, though with great difficulty if the Russian or Chinese player knows what they're doing and doesn't go for Wolfhound spam & Nuwa spam straight off the bat, but then they have glaring weaknesses when it comes to dealing with the quicker factions, such as Latin Confederation & Scorpion Cell. The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.
 

Tesla Trooper may be immune to dogs and is uncrushable, but when you have 4 Flaktroopers for each 1 Tesla Trooper you could have, they do a hell of a lot more damage than the Tesla Trooper

You can also have 1 Dog per each Flak Trooper the enemy has. There's no way those few Teslas will be able to kill that many of them. If you would use more dogs, the enemy would stop spamming Flak Troopers quickly.
Their damage itself, i won't comment on it. But then, someone might also want to see how a group of Flak Troopers killed Zenothist's Abramses on one of the streams, and i don't think all of it was Zenothist's fault.

 

 

True, however, dogs are a little difficult to manage, they're just as erratic as Terror Drones and seem to go wildly after the opponent's units, which a smart player can take advantage of to lure out all the dogs, it's an unreliable counter and requires way too much micromanagement in my opinion. Pyros seem to be able to deal with Dogs efficiently, possibly backed with the uber cheap Conscripts to take the bait.

[Atomic_Noodles]

Bio Reactors are fine. That's their main gimmick and your forgetting you need to spend money on those dogs too. And all those Dogs will cost you $750 just to fill up a single reactor.

[Black/Brunez]

 

 

 Blizzards are too expensive and aren't doing enough damage

 

Sure, alone killing 80% of the infantry with, on the max, 2 shot (1 medium armored if they stand still), damage in line, and leaving some frost air on the ground for some time, doing heavy damage specially for infantry, plus the speed nerf applied for their targuets... without forgeting the good range. There is no way that this unit is good vs infantry...

 

Also, adding some extra Blizzards on the mix they can even face enemy armor.