2870 replies to this topic

[Solais]

Hmm, why not make it a reward from the Secret Labs then?

[CLAlstar]

Because secret labs already have a nice role, if you seen Cesare's videos.

[Solais]

Yes, they give T3 Monster tanks, but technically, the Apoc fits that role. So it could be a "secret" T3 Monster tank.

[Death_Kitty]

Are we so certain its not coming back? I mean the future tank came back, new and improved. I sure the Apoc could use the same treatment... I don't see a reason why it wont com back as the soviet stolen tech... Same with the deviator, thought that will need a rework.

[Oktavia]

Apoc is the most irrelevant T3 unit in RA2, more so in YR. Dunno where the whole "iconic" comes from. And Kirovs are more iconic anyway.

[aethiraes]

We're getting the Mastodon, which is basically the GDI Mammoth or Apocalypse Tank. I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty cool with losing the Apocalypse tank at this point.

Edited by aethiraes, 22 September 2016 - 11:04 PM.

[Solais]

Apoc is the most irrelevant T3 unit in RA2, more so in YR. Dunno where the whole "iconic" comes from. And Kirovs are more iconic anyway.

 

 

They are Mammoth Tanks with a different name. The Mammoth Tank is the true actual icon of the series, and as such, should exist in one way or another.

 

Also dunno about you, but in RA2/YR, nothing could really stop a massive army of Apocs. Now getting to having that army, is the hard thing.

 

Of course, the response to this will be something along the lines of "proper tactics" and "more hardcore MP players" and whatever, who cares, C&C was ALWAYS about the campaign and solo skirmishes. It is viewed as the more casual RTS series compared to the others, even to this very day. Sure, it can be played competitively, but it's really just a minority of the entire fandom. This is why most of the feedback regarding this very mod here and on facebook and all that was about the save/load function and why the campaign is so difficult, because that's really what most people look forward to. As far as I really go, I don't give a damn about balance, as long as the campaign is fun and well designed and the features and units added are interesting and cool.

 

 

Fake Edit Due to Sudden New Post: If the Mastodon is the inheritor of the Mammoth Tank that... hmm maybe. Its railgun does look like twin cannons, though it doesn't seem to have anti-air capability.

Edited by Solais, 22 September 2016 - 11:08 PM.

[Mr_FakeSmile]

MO hates apoc... :(

[Oktavia]

They are Mammoth Tanks with a different name. The Mammoth Tank is the true actual icon of the series, and as such, should exist in one way or another.

Mammoths tanks were the icon of RA1, the game about spamming tanks, so it's expected a dual-barrel tank would shine there somewhat until the addon. But in RA2 they died out, much like the real mammoths.

 

Also dunno about you, but in RA2/YR, nothing could really stop a massive army of Apocs. Now getting to having that army, is the hard thing.

Yeah, nothing can stop this army, with the exception of Prism and Mirage spam, G.I. spam (in YR - Guardian G.I.) or Yuri clone spam.
 

Of course, the response to this will be something along the lines of "proper tactics" and "more hardcore MP players" and whatever, who cares, C&C was ALWAYS about the campaign and solo skirmishes. It is viewed as the more casual RTS series compared to the others, even to this very day. Sure, it can be played competitively, but it's really just a minority of the entire fandom. This is why most of the feedback regarding this very mod here and on facebook and all that was about the save/load function and why the campaign is so difficult, because that's really what most people look forward to. As far as I really go, I don't give a damn about balance, as long as the campaign is fun and well designed and the features and units added are interesting and cool.

No, the response is they suck at both modes. Soviet missions are magnitude more harder compared to Allied ones exactly because Apoc is average at best. It's worse in YR where Soviets don't have a reliable way to counter Gatlings + Psycho Towers defense line, outside of throwing Apocs at them and hoping mind-controlled units won't do much damage before blowing towers up. Two (or three) Prism Towers one-shot an apoc pretty easily, when Tesla Coil don't even have chance at landing a hit on a Prism. AA capability isn't fit for such slow unit, most of the aircrafts will unload their ammo before getting shot. And the apoc spam isn't that effective compared to equivalent cost of Prism spam. In large numbers Prisms has superior range and minor AoE damage, so a wall of apocs versus wall of prism ends up with almost all prisms in the wall doing the damage while only 2 or 3 line of apocs being able to attack, if they get to prisms in the first place.

All in all, it's a meme unit which only looks cool in cutscenes.

[CLAlstar]

Is it me or is Oktavia for once speaking with sense o_o

 

Also, Deviator turned into Irritator, which isnt t3 unit at all.

 

 

Also dunno about you, but in RA2/YR, nothing could really stop a massive army of Apocs.

Maybe in campaign. I often happen to see RA2/YR games, mostly competetive ones when it comes to RA2. And i can ensure one thing - Apoc plain suck to point its used maybe like once per 100 games. Really, i see sucky V3 launchers having more moments to shine in games than T3 tank.

 

 

As far as I really go, I don't give a damn about balance, as long as the campaign is fun and well designed and the features and units added are interesting and cool.

And there is a clash of mindsets. For example, i played multi since 3.0 release and i plan to continue doing that after 3.3 release. In game balance is very important topic because right now some of us have a chance to change anything that would be broken *cough* psicorps *cough*.

 

Also Oktavia, there are reasons for which 90% of RA2 playerbase - at least on XWIS - plays as Iraq. Mostly because desorihno combo is too broken for any faction to deal with.

[Solais]

Well then, the obvious solution is to buff the Apoc so it overcomes its problems mentioned above. :V

 

But anyways, as long they are in the campaign and are buildable, it's fine for me. Or even if I can make them buildable using the rulesmo.ini, since I don't plan playing multiplayer anyways.

 

Actually there's a suggestion: Make the rulesmo.ini available by default, without the need to crack open the mix files.

Edited by Solais, 23 September 2016 - 07:54 AM.

[BlackAbsence]

Small suggestion: Crazy Ivan could place bombs from inside an "open-topped" vehicle (if they don't already. I haven't tested this). I think this would be fun.

 

And regarding what you guys are talking about:

The most Iconic unit of C&C1 would be... Well, I don't know. There's so many memorable ones, like the Mammoth, Orica, Stealth Tank, and Flame Tank, but I haven't seen any of those used as an icon.

The most iconic unit of RA2 would be Tanya and/or the Kirov... Maybe Volkov?

The most iconic unit of RA2/YR would be Yuri himself, obviously.

And the most iconic unit of MO, I think, would have to be the mighty Centurion Siege Crawler. That or the Mastermind because it's Mental Omega.

 

It looks like the Apoc is really eating the dust with these new arsenals. Would be nice to still get it somehow though.

Edited by BlackAbsence, 23 September 2016 - 05:45 PM.

[Solais]

Volkov wasn't in RA2, though. For me, the Apoc and the Kirov was definitely on the Soviet side, and the Prism tanks on the Allied side. Maybe the Harriers too, just because of the YR intro and because I love Harriers in general, outside of RA2 as well.

 

In MO, the super-units are definitely iconic, both the Centurion and the Irkalla. And then there's the idol duo of Yunru and Libra. (Get your ticket for their first ever live concert now!)

 

Interestingly enough, Yuri himself have seemingly lost its iconic status in MO, as he's really not present at all due to the lack of any sort of cutscenes. Which is kind of a shame. I still think there should be some sort of cutscenes, either using all those CG models made for the new units, or cutscenes with the.... exact same style as some of the latest videos were made (meaning, it's not outside the capabilities of the team). Basically, logging onto an EVA-like network and getting the gist of the story, lore, and battle situation. The original C&C also had several cutscenes like that, where it was just the EVA explaining the world to the player.

Edited by Solais, 23 September 2016 - 06:17 PM.

[Martinoz]

 

 

 I still think there should be some sort of cutscenes, either using all those CG models made for the new units, or cutscenes with the.... exact same style as some of the latest videos were made (meaning, it's not outside the capabilities of the team). Basically, logging onto an EVA-like network and getting the gist of the story, lore, and battle situation. The original C&C also had several cutscenes like that, where it was just the EVA explaining the world to the player.

Do them then

[mevitar]

Basically, logging onto an EVA-like network and getting the gist of the story, lore, and battle situation. The original C&C also had several cutscenes like that, where it was just the EVA explaining the world to the player.

Commentary form would require EVA voice actors to be consistent. Using cut'n'paste with currently existing EVA voices would only make it sound unnatural and bad.
Doing something like that would require new EVAs for everyone. I don't think it's something we'll get.

Edited by mevitar, 23 September 2016 - 09:07 PM.

[Mr_FakeSmile]

Why don't you use motion comics and add them subtitles?

.. Pan Tostado

[Solais]

 

 

 

 I still think there should be some sort of cutscenes, either using all those CG models made for the new units, or cutscenes with the.... exact same style as some of the latest videos were made (meaning, it's not outside the capabilities of the team). Basically, logging onto an EVA-like network and getting the gist of the story, lore, and battle situation. The original C&C also had several cutscenes like that, where it was just the EVA explaining the world to the player.

Do them then

 

 

Originally about a year or so ago, I hinted that I might be able to animate some cutscenes using the game engine I use at work if there are any 3D models available (though, it wouldn't have looked like pre-rendered videos, since it is a game engine), but I don't think I have the time now. I might still be able to do some in my free time, but since I'm not a modeler, I can't exactly work without them. I once tried modeling the Yuri/Epsilon logo for some simple C&C victory cutscenes (similar to what Twisted Insurrection got), but the model just didn't come out right.

[eberronguy]

Honestly, doing voice work for cutscenes or a new EVA sounds like something I would like to do to try and contribute. It would either have to be that or be the one beta tester who isn't a pro at this game. I love this game but I have only beaten Epsilon 1, Soviet 1 and 2, and Allied 7.

[X1Destroy]

Balance yeah, is it that difficult to balance epic units? Consider the fact that Foehn is going to have 4 of them, I don't think there will be an unsolvable problem with Russia having an epic Apocalypse.

 

[Graion Dilach]

Yes, it is quite difficult to balance buildlimited units.