463 replies to this topic

[Petya]

You can always pause the game and take a break while the pause. Just minimize the game.

[Martinoz]

Three hours? Seriously, that long of a mission actually physically hurts the player, it tires him out. According to the game designers I personally know (as they are my tutors in a roundabout way), even if a level takes 1 hour to complete, it causes tiredness, both physically and mentally. It is mostly regarded that if a level is longer than 40 minutes, then it must be split up to smaller ones. Of course, originally this only applies to games like FPS and other high-adrenaline games, since RTS games are supposed to take less lighting reflexes (at least campaign wise).

 

Actually, I wonder about this Ares problem. Sure, there are a few things that might be needed for MO to be fixed within Ares, but then what? Will it be forever lacking the save/load function because who knows how long till the creators decide that it's time to stop development? I think it would be the best that after Ares reaches a point that it got everything MO needs, a branch is then made for MO that enables saving.

 

 

 

And why the fack do people think that smashing the keyboard with hotkeys continously is a fun and interesting thing to do? Is this Starcrap we're playing? No.

If you find it too difficult, you can always play vanilla C&C games which require nothing from a player. MO 3.0 is not for those who only rely on using mouse.

 

Ok, so you are telling people to don't play the mod you've all been working on for years? I don't think that's good PR.

There will be no drastic difficulty lowering because few people can't do a mission - missions were made easier enough since the closed beta where Easy difficulty was as hard as Mental today. If you think it's too hard even on easy, either learn how to play or just find something less difficult.

Edited by Martinoz, 23 December 2013 - 09:52 AM.

[X1Destroy]

 

And why the fack do people think that smashing the keyboard with hotkeys continously is a fun and interesting thing to do? Is this Starcrap we're playing? No.

If you find it too difficult, you can always play vanilla C&C games which require nothing from a player. MO 3.0 is not for those who only rely on using mouse.

 

I have a question.

Why the hell won't any of you advertise that "We are pros, and this is a pro edition mod that ya noobs should fack off before thinking to touch it lulz luz blah blah blah...."before?
 

 

There will be no drastic difficulty lowering because few people can't do a mission

What made you think that there's only a few people who can't?

 

Edited by X1Destroy, 23 December 2013 - 10:04 AM.

[Petya]

Missions aren't impossible and I don't think that many of them require special skills to complete them. I also don't have the pro's skill, but I still completed lots of hard missions on easy and some of them on mental.

[Martinoz]

 

 

And why the fack do people think that smashing the keyboard with hotkeys continously is a fun and interesting thing to do? Is this Starcrap we're playing? No.

If you find it too difficult, you can always play vanilla C&C games which require nothing from a player. MO 3.0 is not for those who only rely on using mouse.

 

I have a question.

Why the hell won't any of you advertise that "We are pros, and this is a pro edition mod that ya noobs should fack off before thinking to touch it lulz luz blah blah blah...."before?
 

 

There will be no drastic difficulty lowering because few people can't do a mission

What made you think that there's only a few people who can't?

Because that's not the way that developers must adapt to the skills of gamers, but gamers must adapt their skill to a game - if you find it hard, practice, that's not easy as it was in vanilla because it's not a mod for sunday gamers which do not use hotkeys, spacebar. Easy difficulty is a really easy one, can't imagine how is it possible to complain about the difficult easy mode where most of the AI tricks were cut. So my proposition is clear - practice at least for easy, leave the current game and wait for S/L ability.

[Solais]

Actually I wonder, is it really a -few- people who can't do the missions? Or just only a few actually telling this on the forums or facebook? After all, from what I've seen on the front page, on the Moddb thing, the popularity of the mod have been declining...

 

Actually, developers HAVE to adapt to the skills of gamers, that's why there are such things as difficulty settings in almost every game. It is unfortunate that RA2 can only have 3 due to hardcoding, but then it still got 3 and there might be a balance possible there. (Personally, the perfect solution is to have like 6 pre-defined difficulty settings with a 7th, Custom difficulty setting where players can set a few things for themselves.)

Edited by Solais, 23 December 2013 - 10:16 AM.

[Petya]

I think the missions are way easier than they were in the closed beta and there won't be easy missions, which require only spamming one unit and then destroy the enemy with them.

[X1Destroy]

Missions like the first 4 Soviet ones are truely easy, though.

Allied 3 is even easier.

[Martinoz]

Actually I wonder, is it really a -few- people who can't do the missions? Or just only a few actually telling this on the forums or facebook? After all, from what I've seen on the front page, on the Moddb thing, the popularity of the mod have been declining...

 

Actually, developers HAVE to adapt to the skills of gamers, that's why there are such things as difficulty settings in almost every game. It is unfortunate that RA2 can only have 3 due to hardcoding, but then it still got 3 and there might be a balance possible there. (Personally, the perfect solution is to have like 6 pre-defined difficulty settings with a 7th, Custom difficulty setting where players can set a few things for themselves.)

That's 3 weeks after a release and it's not a type of game that needs updates per week. Actually, developers DON'T NEED to adapt their game for casual gamers, that's a casual gamer that must adapt skill for a specific game, it worked perfectly since 80s till companies released games with autohealing/autoaim and other crap. If you thought that will be another C&C with extremely easy difficulty that encourages players to spam one type of unit to win you were thinking wrong. The Allied campaign is about to defend against much larger Soviet army with limited resources, in Soviet campaign Allies are defending themselves in a desperate way (that's why there are tons of annoying paradrops) and Epsilon is a typical commando like campaign. Difficulty was lowered enough since the closed beta where even testers had a lot of problems with most of the missions and today's Panic Cycle is nothing compared to the closed beta Panic Cycle even on the easy difficulty your convoy was moving so fast it was hard to keep it safe.

 

For example, closed beta Panic Cycle on easy had the following:
- Chinese EMP mines on path, Scud Launchers shooting the convoy, Tesla Cruiser Ambush + paratroopers in village, extremely huge wave of basic infantry to kill on start, tons of halftracks to kill Siegfried

and public beta release...

- No EMP Mines, No Scud Launchers, No Tesla Cruisers, very small ambush, small group of basic infantry to kill on start, no halftracks hunting for Siegfried

 

First missions in the campaign are the starters, it's not strange that later missions are harder

Edited by Martinoz, 23 December 2013 - 10:34 AM.

[Petya]

And don't forget Nuwa Cannons.

[Solais]

I agree with X1, the first four Soviet missions were perfect difficulty-wise, the rest should be similar, but just a little harder. That's also a problem, that the difficulty pacing is just all over the place. It should go from Easy to Medium to Hard, not Easy to Hard to Medium to Impossible. That just throws people off, they don't expect things to be like that. Missions should have a steady difficulty scale, gradually getting harder, not all over the place. No wonder people find it too hard when they are not allowed to ease into it.

 

Also, I don't agree with the whole "it worked perfectly since 80s till companies released games with autohealing/autoaim and other crap". I've been playing games since back then, but originally games were made hard because developers didn't know any better. Games originally only existed in arcades, and they were super hard, only to milk you for money, nothing else. This point of view adapted to early game consoles, but as games became more and more complex and reached more and more people, they became seemingly easier, as people started to learn how to actually make a game -fun-. Right now, it could be said that we are living in a world where games are too easy, but that's not true. We live in a world where games are more -accessible-. A world where games are not made for a small niche audience, but everyone, and everyone -should- have the choice how to play their games (especially when it is singleplayer), because there are as many gaming styles as there are many players.

 

Thinking that there's really something separate, filthy group of "casual players" is just plain wrong, it's a myth, because everyone is a "casual player". Most people plays a lot of other games, not just a single one, after all, and I doubt many people have time to master every game possible.

 

Also yes, the difficulty might have been lowered since the Closed Beta. Of course it's easy for you all, you've been testing the game for months if not years. And of course it's easy for the creators, they created it; that's why their feedback is invalid. But it is Public Beta now, your testers are the miriad gamers around the globe, and they are reporting their feedback, just like you all requested.

Edited by Solais, 23 December 2013 - 01:41 PM.

[mevitar]

Actually, I wonder about this Ares problem. Sure, there are a few things that might be needed for MO to be fixed within Ares, but then what? Will it be forever lacking the save/load function because who knows how long till the creators decide that it's time to stop development? I think it would be the best that after Ares reaches a point that it got everything MO needs, a branch is then made for MO that enables saving.

Yes, because Ares team is doing all this work for MO only anyway. They should definitely stop when MO has everything it needs, and focus on adding save/load.

I don't know what you think Ares is, but it's definitely not MO charity work, and i can tell you already that this won't happen.

Edited by mevitar, 23 December 2013 - 12:03 PM.

[Solais]

I know it is not only for MO, but it currently chains down MO. That's why I suggested an MO-branch that enables saving, while the development continues on the main branch.

[lovalmidas]

That pacing is all over the place, that I agree. The missions are based on the story and not on the skill level required of the player. That, and the fact that many people plunge straight into the campaign means people get awed and overwhelmed very quickly. The sandbox skirmish works as an unofficial tutorial to get the hang of the game.
 
We have some moderately easy missions, there are some that pose a challenge, there are some that makes you sweat, and there are the RAGE inductors. Still, all of them requires the person to be at least competent in the original Yuri's Revenge and know at least how to use the new units effectively.
 
The Campaign is not meant to be completed by casuals in just a month. And we don't expect one to beat all of them. This is why we have a relatively large number of missions (36 + 18 coops), a wide array of mission types (base building was heavily emphasized in the original), and a mission selection menu.
 
The adapting will come from both sides. We have a wide array of players to look at. I have seen at least someone complaining that the campaigns are too easy (that's hardcore)! We will look at what you've said and consider them. But if there are any difficulty-related changes, they'll be for the Easy difficulty only.  
 
Meanwhile, we can just call 'campaigns' Challenge Missions if that makes you a bit happier.
 
oh, and Saving/loading really is a secondary issue here.

[Solais]

Well, I really mostly wanted the Easy difficulty to be easier (so the more "casuals"/non-pro players have some chance of beating it), the other difficulties can be left for those who want real challenge.

 

It would be also neat if there was a tutorial about those optimal keyboard shortcuts, since the normal game never taught us that, and I played this game for a decade without even knowing that there are more keys other than H, N and F, besides the groupings. Like Space. Sure, they are in the menu of a menu of a menu, but it's kind of hard to find.

Maybe putting them on that bar in the bottom, with a tooltip that shows the shortcut to them on the keyboard.

 

The problem with the current setup is that, yes, there are a shitload variety of missions, which is perfect (I really dislike that most games are too short), but all of them follows a storyline, and naturally, a lot of people want to see how the story turns out, playing the missions in order.

 

Not to mention, it was said, that when MO is ready, then you will have to do the missions in order, no more selection, so that option will be taken out. (Which is also okay, I'd prefer that way).

 

On the other hand, I have managed to modify a CheatEngine cheat table for Yuri's Revenge to work under MO, so I can at least play the missions in God Mode.

It's good for practicing too for the real challenge, because one of the most annoying parts of the missions that they are really unpredictable.

Edited by Solais, 24 December 2013 - 12:53 PM.

[lovalmidas]

lol, you cheater. You tempt me to make a mission so hard a CheatEngine will still fail.

[Graion Dilach]

I know it is not only for MO, but it currently chains down MO. That's why I suggested an MO-branch that enables saving, while the development continues on the main branch.

Why ofcourse! Development can carry on in the main branch qhile focus happens on save/load especially when there's only a single coder and a mere contributor, who can't even find time to contribute. You have no fucking idea about Ares.

 

And lolz at Martinoz's claims. MO campaign is wtf. RDR was a lot easier ages ago then now. Because 2 years ago I could complete it and now I can't. I don't even bother about campaigns, Easy is by no means Easy, only Simplified, but only as simple as Simplified Chinese is.

[Solais]

I may have no fucking idea about Ares, but that's because I don't care. It's not my problem to know about it, I just to try suggesting solutions to the problems I find as part of QA (since we are all testers now in the Public Beta). Those suggestions can be discarded to your pleasure. It's like how publishers act when they tell players about their problems with piracy and why they need DRM. Players don't care about that, it's their problem.

 

 

lol, you cheater. You tempt me to make a mission so hard a CheatEngine will still fail.

 

Well, I can tell you that missions still take a load of time even like this. But it's still an opportunity to learn about the missions first-hand, which is better than watching a video. Also, in my experience as part of a QA team (I worked/am working as a tester for Croteam, creators of the Serious Sam series; while also being one of the top modders of their community), cheats are really useful inspecting bugs and balance problems, because you have the ease to observe them peacefully. So far, I found Allied Mission 8 (I think, the one with the ICBMs), to be quite balanced. I really like that even though it's a commando mission, if you are careful, you can build up quite an army. And you get both medics and an engineer for IFVs (if I remember right), so you can take your time healing.

 

I'm curious about the next one, I really love story wise how it's a shout-out to those two RA1 missions I really liked! (And I wish there were similar missions in MO as well, where you return to your old base.)

[Martinoz]

Human Shield - No mine detection by any available unit, makes a mission completely random chess mission because the only way to learn where are the mines it's to get killed by them and restart a mission.

[lovalmidas]

or use Civilians as another human shield, there are a lot of them in the town you start at.

But yeah, I'd also call for having a detector unit somewhere. A Tesla Trooper would be nice, especially at Easy.