5129 replies to this topic

[Polaris Starnor]

No, no they shouldn’t, Motor ambush is meant to harass an opponent, not that motor quads do particularly well, but that’s it’s purpose. Risen inferno’s entire purpose is to support an army’s attack with firepower and repairs, although it can be used to raid an opponent’s jet stockpile, I feel that limiting the range of risen inferno wouldn’t be a good solution. Bloatik trap makes the most sense to limit, but if it gets to that point i’d much rather bloatik trap just become a defensive mine like structure.

[Handepsilon]

You still get a lot of windows of opportunities with Risen Inferno and Motor Ambush really, the former being quite lengthy to fire and usually not instakilling a lot of stuff, and the latter's not exactly great at immediate sniping.

[Petya]

The core unit in the Epsilon arsenal is the Brute whether you like it or not, Cloning Vats enables the player to spam them, so in lategame the Epsilon player is going to rely on infantry (Brute) spam a lot. Currently Scorpion Cell lategame relies on Tyrants, which of course aren't particularly strong head on, but are really devastating if they pop up in one's base. 5 of them are enough to take out core structures in a matter of seconds. With vehicle cloning you would need to queue 2 or 3 of them, because of the duplication, hence such attacks would become way more frequent.  Scorpion Cell is spammy indeed, but their armored units were intended to lose head on, that's why

 

As for the price increase: it doesn't work the way you imagine. Price increase also increases the production time indirectly, because production time's formula includes the price. That's why Industrial Plant indirectly grants another buff: decreased production speed and it can't be overriden. The Soviet armor arsenal was balanced around it, so it isn't really a problem, but in SC's case such thing might not worth the effort at all. As I said, Scorpion Cell will likely get something unique (or not), which will allow more lategame opportunities, but increasing their unit spam just won't make Scorpion Cell any more interesting.

[Handepsilon]

The core unit in the Epsilon arsenal is the Brute whether you like it or not, Cloning Vats enables the player to spam them, so in lategame the Epsilon player is going to rely on infantry (Brute) spam a lot.

....

Are you sure you know what you're talking about? I mean, yeah maybe Brute was strong in 3.0... but barely anybody talks about Brute, and I've played with other Epsilon players. Initiates/Archers shine far more than they do

[Attenpeter]

The core unit in the Epsilon arsenal is the Brute whether you like it or not, Cloning Vats enables the player to spam them, so in lategame the Epsilon player is going to rely on infantry (Brute) spam a lot.

i guess this is also addressed at me, its really hard to tell if you don´t use quotes, if yes what did i do to make you think i do not know that, i even said in one of my previews post: "especially Epsilon because infantry seems to be balanced around the cloning vet."

 

Currently Scorpion Cell lategame relies on Tyrants, which of course aren't particularly strong head on, but are really devastating if they pop up in one's base. 5 of them are enough to take out core structures in a matter of seconds.

​Also i know that SC relies on tyrants which as i stated were overbuffed hard in the latest patch with the hidden ROF change, the entire point of my proposal was to fix the late game deficit of SC which will be even bigger when tyrants be fixed. You sound like you believe I've never played against SC or as Scorpion cell in mp.

 

 With vehicle cloning you would need to queue 2 or 3 of them, because of the duplication, hence such attacks would become way more frequent. Scorpion Cell is spammy indeed, but their armored units were intended to lose head on, that's why   <- is there some part of the sentence missing? even with 25% reducktion SC would still lose to t3 monster tank spam.

As for the price increase: it doesn't work the way you imagine. Price increase also increases the production time indirectly, because production time's formula includes the price. That's why Industrial Plant indirectly grants another buff: decreased production speed and it can't be overriden.

Are you not see the contrast of what you wrote? On the one hand you say it would be to spammy and on the other it would not that big of a boost, FYI i know that the price is in the production formula  it would be with 50% price reduction still a build time boost! EDIT mh according to terminal velocity its not a a factor in build time, if thats the case i would consider it worth building even with out a overall cost reduction if the price of the building itself is not to high.

Also the 50 % price increase was only a number could be easily changed to be more balance for example with: 

40 % price increase  => 30% price reduction per unit 

50 % price increase  => 25% price reduction per unit 

60 % price increase  => 20% price reduction per unit

 

As I said, Scorpion Cell will likely get something unique (or not), which will allow more late-game opportunities, but increasing their unit spam just won't make Scorpion Cell any more interesting. 

Well i cant factor in something what is not even revealed yet in this discussion, something what you are not even sure if its gets added to the game. Also i thing SC would be more interesting if it would be more have more unit spam but it just my humble opinion.

Edited by Attenpeter, 18 December 2018 - 02:44 PM.

[Terminal Velocity]

Cost Multipliers like Industrial Plant actually don't affect the build time. You can test it ingame if you don't believe me.

[Drezalnor]

The core unit in the Epsilon arsenal is the Brute whether you like it or not, Cloning Vats enables the player to spam them, so in lategame the Epsilon player is going to rely on infantry (Brute) spam a lot. Currently Scorpion Cell lategame relies on Tyrants, which of course aren't particularly strong head on, but are really devastating if they pop up in one's base. 5 of them are enough to take out core structures in a matter of seconds. With vehicle cloning you would need to queue 2 or 3 of them, because of the duplication, hence such attacks would become way more frequent.  Scorpion Cell is spammy indeed, but their armored units were intended to lose head on, that's why
 
As for the price increase: it doesn't work the way you imagine. Price increase also increases the production time indirectly, because production time's formula includes the price. That's why Industrial Plant indirectly grants another buff: decreased production speed and it can't be overriden. The Soviet armor arsenal was balanced around it, so it isn't really a problem, but in SC's case such thing might not worth the effort at all. As I said, Scorpion Cell will likely get something unique (or not), which will allow more lategame opportunities, but increasing their unit spam just won't make Scorpion Cell any more interesting.

Wait,what?!Brutes are literally a wasted investment lategame for Epsilon.They are nothing more than cannon fodder at that stage.

Scorpion Cell is more or less similar to GLA,considering the scrappiness of it's units-only their agility,sneakiness and numbers give SC any talkable advantage whatsoever.

[Petya]

Okay, my information about Industrial Plant was a bit outdated: building time calculates with the original cost. Further research into the subject revealed that you actually can't override production speed with another structure.

 

So basically the Vehicle Cloning Structure could only increase the price of the units and yes, I do see the contrast: it was meant to highlight the problematic balance of having 2 cloning structures for one faction. What you are saying is basically that Scorpion Cell should have two eco boosters, but one would come with the trade off of having increased prices. The core issue, which you just don't seem to understand is: it doesn't bring anything unique to Scorpion Cell and just makes a spammy faction even more spammier, which even you understood that it wouldn't help against T3 tanks much, hence it wouldn't alleviate the faction's lategame deficit.

 

Speaking of which: Scorpion Cell is an early game oriented faction with a midgame powerspike, which falls off lategame. What I don't understand is that why you want to make their lategame strong, when it's not as bad as one would think, and it would contradict Scorpion Cell's intended playstyle, because they weren't supposed to be as powerful lategame as China for example, whose early and midgame are exceptionally bad.

 

Shortly: no vehicle cloning for Scorpion Cell

[Attenpeter]

So i see the problem here is that you don´t want a strong late game for SC while i want to have the powerlevel around the same level as all other faktions, it doesn't makes sense to me to have one subfaction lacking  behind in lategame power just because of "flavor", it would make more sence to me to make the official flavor stand out more to fix the power level problem. I also not really seeing the power spike you mention in the mid game i guess you mean the unit speeder, i don´t then making that big for a power spike in comparison to the other faction t2 units they are roughly on par with for example Marauders, Zephyr, Mirage, Seal Ifv, Irritator. Maybe in comparison to soviets but thats another story.

 

So basically the Vehicle Cloning Structure could only increase the price of the units and yes, I do see the contrast: it was meant to highlight the problematic balance of having 2 cloning structures for one faction. What you are saying is basically that Scorpion Cell should have two eco boosters, but one would come with the trade off of having increased prices.

then you logic is just flawed: 

statement 1 "With vehicle cloning you would need to queue 2 or 3 of them, because of the duplication, hence such attacks would become way more frequent."

statement 2 "As for the price increase: it doesn't work the way you imagine. Price increase also increases the production time indirectly, because production time's formula includes the price. That's why Industrial Plant indirectly grants another buff: decreased production speed and it can't be overriden."

what you wanted to say: "it was meant to highlight the problematic balance of having 2 cloning structures for one faction." 

these states just not even contradict each other they do nothing to imply problems with having 2 cloning structures for one faction.

Also i would be fine if the building has cost cost reduction at all but just simply double you tank building speed (100% price increase) which would be a much stronger effect than building another wf.

 

The core issue, which you just don't seem to understand is: it doesn't bring anything unique to Scorpion Cell and just makes a spammy faction even more spammier

The core issue, which you just don't seem to understand is it would help to bring SC late game closer to  other factions which is was my intention is, by amplifying the strength of it. In comparison to HQ or PC they don´t use more infantry at all and have only around 30% more tanks on the field which is not really that much of a difference 

[Petya]

There are 12 factions. To keep them more or less balanced and relevant, each of them requires a special approach. If you want to make Scorpion Cell equally powerful lategame as HQ, it'd call for siphoning the early game power to the lategame. The key to keep these many factions balanced is the inequality: some focus on early game, some focus on lategame. This design philosophy isn't new and it's the only way to keep so many sides close to balance, of course there will be always stronger and weaker sides. Scorpion Cell's lategame isn't even close to weak, it's mediocre at best due to Malver. We are thinking of new ways to make Scorpion Cell be able to pull off outplays lategame, but in terms of raw power it won't be near as good as China for example.

 

It doesn't make you sense, but it's been like that since the dawn of MO3.0 and it worked. Each have their own playstyles and admittedly Epsilon among the original 3 had a big learning curve, with Scorpion Cell requiring the most mechanical skills, which of course was expectable from a faction which is both micro and macro intensive. If we are to make each faction equal in power, we might as well mirror everything, the result will be a dull game.

 

Regarding vehicle cloning for Scorpion Cell I'll be short and simple: there is no need for secondary production booster for a faction, which already pumps out units really fast. Epsilon Infantry is priced according to Cloning Vats with the exception of some infantries, whose base value is the same as other sides (Engineer). What you are saying not only has its technical limitations (hence it wasn't done in the case of cloning vats), but vehicle cloning, if implemented would require global adjustments, because having 2 Irkallas would be over the top for example and again, it's not going make SC lategame any more stronger.

[Divine]

Well for the record, thanks to Ares, unit costs and build times can be divorced entirely with a smart combination of forbidden prerequisites, redundant units that differ only in some of their code and build time multipliers.

Edited by Divine, 18 December 2018 - 06:07 PM.

[Attenpeter]

If you want to make Scorpion Cell equally powerful lategame as HQ, it'd call for siphoning the early game power to the lategame.  

​Not sure why would you do that, i agree SC is good early game but its around the same power level as LC or USA and nobody i know of has a problem with that, so no need change the early game in any way. Which btw have no problems in late game so you can have strong late and early game. (exept maybe vs PC because of masterminds) 

 

It doesn't make you sense, but it's been like that since the dawn of MO3.0 and it worked.

Seem like an " it always was so that SC has sub-par late since the dawn of time and should therefore not be changed" argument which is not really an argument

 

Scorpion Cell's lategame isn't even close to weak, it's mediocre at best due to Malver.

"its mediocre at best" yeah that would be a fitting description of SC Late game power.

 

If we are to make each faction equal in power, we might as well mirror everything, the result will be a dull game. 

You basally saying have a faction with stronger focus on numbers makes the game duller in this context, are you for real? 

 

if implemented would require global adjustments, because having 2 Irkallas would be over the top for example and again, it's not going make SC lategame any more stronger.

i took it for granted that epic units could not be duplicated if you want i check in if that`s the case in RR. Why do you thing now it would be not make SC late game any stronger?? previously you stated: "With vehicle cloning you would need to queue 2 or 3 of them, because of the duplication, hence such attacks would become way more frequent." that sound to me that you think it would buff the late game. Also double mantis tanks/ speeders would not beat t3 monster tanks but would the fight a bit more fair.

 

Should i take your missing reply on the Bloatic situation in the video as silent agreement that there was not really anything the other player could have done spawn-animation time frame?

[Handepsilon]

some focus on early game, some focus on lategame

maybe the problem here is that Scorpion Cell focuses too much on early game. Other factions seems to have quite a solid late game. USA has Abrams spam, Confed has CataDeso spam. All Foehn pretty much has a great tier 2.5 and 3 to back them up. Don't get me started with Russia.

Scorpion Cell looks quite struggling especially in 1v1. Sure they have Tyrant (whose buff is a little bit too much atm), but they pretty much dies to T3 defenses, and can barely do anything against other tanks. You will also need to be able to train sufficient amount of them and that doesn't exactly take a short amount of time, and gives your opponent an opening to launch an attack unless it's team game. Speeder is a good anti tank, but their usage pretty much relies on being able to hit&run. Mantis Tank gets destroyed left and right due to being T1 MBT as well as being the weakest of them all.

Also, need I remind you that you explicitly put Scorpion Cell loading screen description as excelling in swarming the opponent with sheer numbers.

Edited by Handepsilon, 18 December 2018 - 07:15 PM.

[Petya]

Since this discussion has reached the "grab random sentences out of context" point, I don't see any reason to continue it further from my part. Besides, we are arguing about a feature, which won't happen anyway as it was discussed a few times prior to this, and the conclusions were no.

 

However, it's hard to do justice in such questions, when one part of the community says that Scorpion Cell is okay, and Foehn is weak, and others say vice versa. If we are to listen to the loud minority all the time, the game would be a mess. Personally I feel that balance decisions based on forum suggestions usually ended without achieving anything, because then other part of the community started complaining, that it was overshot. And buffs, nerfs and reversions took toll on resources, because they need to be implemented and yeah, even the smallest nerf is capable of making a mission or missions broken. Maybe it's time to settle down with the balance the way it is. You can start your own mod if you aren't satisfied.

[Divine]

Since this discussion has reached the "grab random sentences out of context" point, I don't see any reason to continue it further from my part. Besides, we are arguing about a feature, which won't happen anyway as it was discussed a few times prior to this, and the conclusions were no.

 

However, it's hard to do justice in such questions, when one part of the community says that Scorpion Cell is okay, and Foehn is weak, and others say vice versa. If we are to listen to the loud minority all the time, the game would be a mess. Personally I feel that balance decisions based on forum suggestions usually ended without achieving anything, because then other part of the community started complaining, that it was overshot. And buffs, nerfs and reversions took toll on resources, because they need to be implemented and yeah, even the smallest nerf is capable of making a mission or missions broken. Maybe it's time to settle down with the balance the way it is. You can start your own mod if you aren't satisfied.

 

There are some 20 active posters on this forum and at least 500-ish MO players, we on the forum are by definition the loud minority. But you are right, balancing based on the suggestions of such a small community is hardly a good idea, even if there is a consensus. I'm on the opinion that the game is too diverse to properly balance, there are many subfactions, many units, and this is a good thing. It is also a good thing that making the arsenal of each subfaction truly unique enjoys priority over balance, if this was not the case then the mod would be dull indeed. Unfortunately, this comes at the cost of factors such as map size and layout, and faction matchup having extreme influence over the outcome compared to other RTS games.

 

I still say that the best chance to get proper and objective feedback to be used for further balancing would be to extend the statistics feature of the client to send data in for central processing, especially regarding things such as which faction played against which, on which map, what was the win ratio of the players involved, what was the outcome, and maybe even things like which units were produced in what number, etc.

Edited by Divine, 18 December 2018 - 09:35 PM.

[Attenpeter]

Now I am kinda feeling bad for that feels a bit like I prevented the implementation as unlikely as the implementation of the feature might be by pissing of a developer.  

I know it was a low blow, to my defense your entire post was right over mine and i quoted the whole sentence so I assumed everybody would notice it. I was kinda pissed off by the way your ignored my arguments and the difference between my balance philosophy and yours, I hope you excuse it.

i just wanted to give feedback.

 

I agree the discussion is getting nowhere, so let’s end it and have a nice Christmas.

[Endless]

You can start your own mod if you aren't satisfied.

This sentence alone is worth a gold mine.

[Solais]

On the other hand, all the imaginative unbalanced new stuff can be easily added to the campaign, because that doesn't have to conform to balance that much. :V

[CLAlstar]

The core unit in the Epsilon arsenal is the Brute whether you like it or not, Cloning Vats enables the player to spam them, so in lategame the Epsilon player is going to rely on infantry (Brute) spam a lot.

Brute is good as long as there is no advanced anti-infantry in the game. Hint hint. There is plenty of that. They can be used in main taskforces but you are better off with adept/archer.

 

Currently Scorpion Cell lategame relies on Tyrants, which of course aren't particularly strong head on, but are really devastating if they pop up in one's base. 5 of them are enough to take out core structures in a matter of seconds. With vehicle cloning you would need to queue 2 or 3 of them, because of the duplication, hence such attacks would become way more frequent.  Scorpion Cell is spammy indeed, but their armored units were intended to lose head on, that's why

Currently SC relies on first 3 minutes of the game, which decide if you should keep on playing the game or just surrender. If you cant harras or map contains ez to defend chokepoints, you are as good as dead.

Techrush is the greatest answer to cell right now.

 

Also, once again you ignore the "affects only specific units" part of dupe factory

 

 

Speaking of which: Scorpion Cell is an early game oriented faction with a midgame powerspike, which falls off lategame. What I don't understand is that why you want to make their lategame strong, when it's not as bad as one would think, and it would contradict Scorpion Cell's intended playstyle, because they weren't supposed to be as powerful lategame as China for example, whose early and midgame are exceptionally bad.

There is no such thing as midgame powerspike. Your chances drasticly lower with each second. Why would we make it lategame stronger? Gee, maybe so they can actually stand on their own without the need of OPAF Tyrants and Malver debuff.

 

>china early and midgame are bad

I'll leave no comment on that.

 

 

Shortly: no vehicle cloning for Scorpion Cell

You're not dev. Thankfully. Stop telling yourself and others otherwise.

 

 

Scorpion Cell's lategame isn't even close to weak, it's mediocre at best due to Malver.

Yes, and that the problem. If you cant do shit because you lack one unit (that is easy to kill, you just need detector) then it is a problem.

 

We are thinking of new ways to make Scorpion Cell be able to pull off outplays lategame, but in terms of raw power it won't be near as good as China for example.

It doesnt have to be as good, it could just stay at "can compete with" level.

 

 

It doesn't make you sense, but it's been like that since the dawn of MO3.0 and it worked. Each have their own playstyles and admittedly Epsilon among the original 3 had a big learning curve, with Scorpion Cell requiring the most mechanical skills, which of course was expectable from a faction which is both micro and macro intensive. If we are to make each faction equal in power, we might as well mirror everything, the result will be a dull game.

I'm gonna laugh at the "learning curve" part while recalling every single match vs psicorps/HQ that ended up with hero rush and mass unbeatable brutes. Plus masterminds in case of psicorps. No SC examples becasue you died before getting there.

 

 

Regarding vehicle cloning for Scorpion Cell I'll be short and simple: there is no need for secondary production booster for a faction, which already pumps out units really fast. Epsilon Infantry is priced according to Cloning Vats with the exception of some infantries, whose base value is the same as other sides (Engineer). What you are saying not only has its technical limitations (hence it wasn't done in the case of cloning vats), but vehicle cloning, if implemented would require global adjustments, because having 2 Irkallas would be over the top for example and again, it's not going make SC lategame any more stronger.

Once again lack of proper reading skills. I bet you didnt even tried Redres to find out whats the deal. You are in no place to speak about limitations here.

 

 

Since this discussion has reached the "grab random sentences out of context" point, I don't see any reason to continue it further from my part. Besides, we are arguing about a feature, which won't happen anyway as it was discussed a few times prior to this, and the conclusions were no.

 

However, it's hard to do justice in such questions, when one part of the community says that Scorpion Cell is okay, and Foehn is weak, and others say vice versa. If we are to listen to the loud minority all the time, the game would be a mess. Personally I feel that balance decisions based on forum suggestions usually ended without achieving anything, because then other part of the community started complaining, that it was overshot. And buffs, nerfs and reversions took toll on resources, because they need to be implemented and yeah, even the smallest nerf is capable of making a mission or missions broken. Maybe it's time to settle down with the balance the way it is. You can start your own mod if you aren't satisfied.

Once again, you are not dev. Regarding the balance part, some of opinions from all sides are considered. Sometimes it does not end well (hidden changes) but part of changes that both foreign and chinese community wanted went through.

 

In a massive TL'DR - Do not argue nor listen to Petya. The only idea of what is going on in game is from what other chat users write - he doesnt play pvp and lives in the past of pre 3.0 betas.

[Initiate]

You're not dev. 

 

if pettya really isn't a dev that's hilarious given how he presents himself

 

Who are the devs besides Speeder, if any? That sort of thing would be great to know

Edited by Initiate, 19 December 2018 - 04:13 AM.