5129 replies to this topic

[legionnaire501]

On Dybbuk-Seizer and Chrono Prison:

IMO compared to other stolen tech units, both of them can't really punish Epsilon well. Chrono Prisons can do nothing against massed Epsilon infantry spams. There are only few units in the Epsilon arsenal that is worth mind-controlling by the Dybbuk-Seizers. So I would suggest that Chrono Prisons can also abduct infantries. Dybbuk-Seizer, on the other hand, should become a regular Epsilon unit.
 

i doubt that the prison having abduction will be a thing simply because of the buratino but i do think that mind control immunity should be added like they did to help the Archelon especially considering it doesn't auto attack.

though i do agree that the epsilon stealable tech are definitely the most situational (with the exception of the grumble) and i just realized its probably because none of them have any way of directly attacking buildings which kind of seems like an odd imbalance to have as there are only 5 total units that cant attack structures and 4 of them are taken from the epsilon

[Endless]

 

On Dybbuk-Seizer and Chrono Prison:

IMO compared to other stolen tech units, both of them can't really punish Epsilon well. Chrono Prisons can do nothing against massed Epsilon infantry spams. There are only few units in the Epsilon arsenal that is worth mind-controlling by the Dybbuk-Seizers. So I would suggest that Chrono Prisons can also abduct infantries. Dybbuk-Seizer, on the other hand, should become a regular Epsilon unit.
 

i doubt that the prison having abduction will be a thing simply because of the buratino but i do think that mind control immunity should be added like they did to help the Archelon especially considering it doesn't auto attack.

though i do agree that the epsilon stealable tech are definitely the most situational (with the exception of the grumble) and i just realized its probably because none of them have any way of directly attacking buildings which kind of seems like an odd imbalance to have as there are only 5 total units that cant attack structures and 4 of them are taken from the epsilon

 

Grumble?

You mean syckles? mmm

Also, what do buratinos have anything to do with this?

Edited by Endless, 23 September 2017 - 12:00 PM.

[BotRot]

 

 

On Dybbuk-Seizer and Chrono Prison:

IMO compared to other stolen tech units, both of them can't really punish Epsilon well. Chrono Prisons can do nothing against massed Epsilon infantry spams. There are only few units in the Epsilon arsenal that is worth mind-controlling by the Dybbuk-Seizers. So I would suggest that Chrono Prisons can also abduct infantries. Dybbuk-Seizer, on the other hand, should become a regular Epsilon unit.
 

i doubt that the prison having abduction will be a thing simply because of the buratino but i do think that mind control immunity should be added like they did to help the Archelon especially considering it doesn't auto attack.

though i do agree that the epsilon stealable tech are definitely the most situational (with the exception of the grumble) and i just realized its probably because none of them have any way of directly attacking buildings which kind of seems like an odd imbalance to have as there are only 5 total units that cant attack structures and 4 of them are taken from the epsilon

 

Grumble?

You mean syckles? mmm

Also, what do buratinos have anything to do with this?

 

Perhaps legionnaire meant the Drakuv, not the Buratino. If the Drakuv did get mind control immunity, it would be able to go head on with PsiCorps Masterminds and Psychic Towers, and those 2 would be defenseless without nearby backup.

[legionnaire501]

 

 

 

On Dybbuk-Seizer and Chrono Prison:

IMO compared to other stolen tech units, both of them can't really punish Epsilon well. Chrono Prisons can do nothing against massed Epsilon infantry spams. There are only few units in the Epsilon arsenal that is worth mind-controlling by the Dybbuk-Seizers. So I would suggest that Chrono Prisons can also abduct infantries. Dybbuk-Seizer, on the other hand, should become a regular Epsilon unit.
 

i doubt that the prison having abduction will be a thing simply because of the buratino but i do think that mind control immunity should be added like they did to help the Archelon especially considering it doesn't auto attack.

though i do agree that the epsilon stealable tech are definitely the most situational (with the exception of the grumble) and i just realized its probably because none of them have any way of directly attacking buildings which kind of seems like an odd imbalance to have as there are only 5 total units that cant attack structures and 4 of them are taken from the epsilon

 

Grumble?

You mean syckles? mmm

Also, what do buratinos have anything to do with this?

 

Perhaps legionnaire meant the Drakuv, not the Buratino. If the Drakuv did get mind control immunity, it would be able to go head on with PsiCorps Masterminds and Psychic Towers, and those 2 would be defenseless without nearby backup.

 

shit yeah i did though i meant for the chronoprisons to be resistant not drakuvs,

also i meant gumbles as in they are not related to the epsilon and can only target aircraft while deployed so are easily the most situational unit in the game

[Bernadiroe]

Chrono Prison: I don't really know how this unit can screw up epsilon. The units they converted mostly won't resist mind-control, so epsilon can just take them back when you send them. The most useful ones I can imagine is Tyrant, since they can level your base from behind the line if you're not careful.

 

Syckle: Now this is a really good one. It takes out infantries with ease (brutes, bloatic) and in numbers can deal significant damage to armored units. Not to mention having emergency invincibility frames.

 

Dybukk-S: Might be good but you would need alot of these to counter the strength-in-number of epsilon, which kinda not worth it... (opting to build alot of airfields just to mind-control everything)

 

Archelon: more of a support unit I guess? It's pretty tanky, stealth, and anti-infantry. And resist mind control. You can't level a base with it but you can tank the defense structures with them. And seems to be good all around against any faction.

[Bernadiroe]

I'm not sure how often players uses support powers in multi but, I would say having Grumbles pretty much deny airdrop supports from any faction, heavy artillery airships from every faction, and back attack from sneaky airplanes. It sounds situational, but having Grumbles really cut down the amount of available support powers you can do for some sub-factions.

[legionnaire501]

Chrono Prison: I don't really know how this unit can screw up epsilon. The units they converted mostly won't resist mind-control, so epsilon can just take them back when you send them. The most useful ones I can imagine is Tyrant, since they can level your base from behind the line if you're not careful.

 

Syckle: Now this is a really good one. It takes out infantries with ease (brutes, bloatic) and in numbers can deal significant damage to armored units. Not to mention having emergency invincibility frames.

 

Dybukk-S: Might be good but you would need alot of these to counter the strength-in-number of epsilon, which kinda not worth it... (opting to build alot of airfields just to mind-control everything)

 

Archelon: more of a support unit I guess? It's pretty tanky, stealth, and anti-infantry. And resist mind control. You can't level a base with it but you can tank the defense structures with them. And seems to be good all around against any faction.

dont get me wrong all the epsilon STUs are great in their own ways but i feel their biggest draw backs is simply the fact they lack direct building attack and i honestly cant think of anyway to give them that ability without seriously breaking them as all of their main weapons (abduction, rad, mind control and nanites) cant attack buildings anyway

 

both chrono prison and dybukk-s have weapons that allow them to take units to indirectly attack buildings so they dont need it as much but having the syckles doing any real damage to buildings would make them way to strong with their speed and invincibility, and then there's the opposite with the archelon as having a stealthed amphib building killer with that much health would be way worse than any borillo

[Bernadiroe]

To be honest, I was always of the opinion that stolen tech units don't have to be "balanced" in that sense. I was never worried about the fact that they lack this or that capability, i.e., anti-structure capability. They're situational, and your investment in stealing the unit will only pay off if the enemy uses a certain composition or has certain vulnerabilities.

 

But that's just my 2 cents worth.

Yes, each unit should have at least some sort of weakness, but in Epsilon's STU case, all of them have no capability of attacking structures, which is different from the other STU from other faction.

 

Allied give you Quickshifter that take care infantry + armored unit + air units, but not that good against structures. Grumble to deny any sort of support power that is aircraft related and aircraft assault themselves. Scavenger can be anything but not all of them at the same time. Phantasm is another anti-infantry + armored unit + aircrafts but bad against structures.

 

Soviet give you Lionheart that take care armored unit and infantries with ease. Apocalypse is an all-rounder great unit against anything. Wormqueen is the same like Lionheart but can burrow. Seitaad Ballista is their siege unit.

 

Foehn give you Future Tank which only effective against armored unit. Iron Dragon that deny ground troops at long range but mediocra against structures. Salamander that effective against everything except infantry because of their ARO + confusion ray combo, not too good with structures. Ramwagon is their anti structures.

 

As you can see, each faction STU provides options for everything, be it anti-infantry, anti-armor, anti-aircraft, or anti-structures. But Epsilon's STU doesn't provide any anti-structures and anti-air. 2 of their STUs are using other units to fill those roles, which kinda meh considering the additional step you need to do before you can actually land a hit. Epsilon STUs are more of supports, to indirectly mitigate incoming assaults by turning them against each others. Which seem underwhelming when compared to the other 3 faction STUs gave you.

[UNSC THE CHILL OF WAR]

Could the epsilon army have a tank which is basically a deployed haze quad but can move and shoot stuff but the tank itself is not invisible. (Like the mirage tank ability in RA3 but can fire).
Or is this unbalanced (even as a stolen tech or epic unit)?

[TrollWarlord]

Grumbles are meant to counter Allied air superiority although its missiles can be easily baited using rocketeers and Black Widow support power and Harriers/Barracudas can go for the kill, but I agree that they are mere situational units.

 

 

To be honest, I was always of the opinion that stolen tech units don't have to be "balanced" in that sense. I was never worried about the fact that they lack this or that capability, i.e., anti-structure capability. They're situational, and your investment in stealing the unit will only pay off if the enemy uses a certain composition or has certain vulnerabilities.

 

But that's just my 2 cents worth.

Yes, each unit should have at least some sort of weakness, but in Epsilon's STU case, all of them have no capability of attacking structures, which is different from the other STU from other faction.

 

Allied give you Quickshifter that take care infantry + armored unit + air units, but not that good against structures. Grumble to deny any sort of support power that is aircraft related and aircraft assault themselves. Scavenger can be anything but not all of them at the same time. Phantasm is another anti-infantry + armored unit + aircrafts but bad against structures.

 

Soviet give you Lionheart that take care armored unit and infantries with ease. Apocalypse is an all-rounder great unit against anything. Wormqueen is the same like Lionheart but can burrow. Seitaad Ballista is their siege unit.

 

Foehn give you Future Tank which only effective against armored unit. Iron Dragon that deny ground troops at long range but mediocra against structures. Salamander that effective against everything except infantry because of their ARO + confusion ray combo, not too good with structures. Ramwagon is their anti structures.

 

As you can see, each faction STU provides options for everything, be it anti-infantry, anti-armor, anti-aircraft, or anti-structures. But Epsilon's STU doesn't provide any anti-structures and anti-air. 2 of their STUs are using other units to fill those roles, which kinda meh considering the additional step you need to do before you can actually land a hit. Epsilon STUs are more of supports, to indirectly mitigate incoming assaults by turning them against each others. Which seem underwhelming when compared to the other 3 faction STUs gave you.

 

TBH i don't mind if STUs from Epsilon doesn't attack structures, but at least they can pose a real threat to Epsilon, which Soviet Syckles and Foehn Archelons can give.   

[PACER]

Could the epsilon army have a tank which is basically a deployed haze quad but can move and shoot stuff but the tank itself is not invisible. (Like the mirage tank ability in RA3 but can fire).
Or is this unbalanced (even as a stolen tech or epic unit)?

 

Let Irkalla have it in the price of its imploders.

 

My life for aiur

[Bernadiroe]

Talking about imploder, it is a process where an object squeezed and collapsed on itself by outside force, right? Like, the opposite of explosion?

 

I was wondering maybe the projectile and on-hit image for Irkalla's imploder can be changed to something that distort the image where it hits as if it's sucked in for a moment? (like the effect when Mastodon is charging and there's a wavey effect on the target, but instead of waves, it's more like a 0.5s transparent blackhole appear)

 

I was thinking, of course this doesn't do much other than visual, but hey, somehow Inferno Tower's 'laser' got changed even tho it's just visual.

[Tathmesh]

It may be interesting to implement more preloaded transports.

 

Gharials come with Knightframes when built and I assume this is to compensate for LB's lack of anti-air vehicle.

 

 

This opens up new ways to balance each faction.

 

For example, Tigrs could come with a small number of Tesla Troopers or Pyros (maybe 1 or something) to give Soviets a slight early game buff by giving them T2 units when they're in T1. 

 

Stingers could come with preloaded engineers (especially because I barely use this for anti-infantry). 

 

This could also vary by faction if it doesn't harm game balance. Borillos might come with Tesla Troopers for Russia, Latin Confed has Pyros, and China has...nothing because Armadillo is already strong. 

 

Jackals can be preloaded with Lancers. This weakens Foehn's ability to abuse oil derricks because Jackals will cost more and take longer to build. So the first capture bonus will be less net growth. 

 

 

I feel like this must have been considered in development at some point. So I'm ready for someone to shut me down on why this idea wouldn't work

Edited by Tathmesh, 23 September 2017 - 10:52 PM.

[Handepsilon]

I don't really think it's necessary. Knightframe starting cargo for Gharial is already its' gimmick. Also, I don't think it's possible to give same units varying loadout depending on the factions. That will require the necessity to clone it in the rules definition.

Technically you can argue that this logic has been done a lot of times albeit in different ways (Salamander, Nautilus)

[mevitar]

Handepsilon, tone down on feeding those Duplicants, or they'll eat us all. You're getting duplicated posts way too often.
 

I feel like this must have been considered in development at some point. So I'm ready for someone to shut me down on why this idea wouldn't work

Tsurugi was supposed to use this, but it doesn't, and right now the likelihood of any older unit getting something like that is low.

Edited by mevitar, 24 September 2017 - 02:19 AM.

[Zmgg]

i have some suggestion

1.Dybbuk-Seizer should become regular epsilon or psicorp unique unit

2.new Epsilon-Epsilon stolen tech unit will be Deviator(from MO3.0) that fire mutation gas like dybbuk-evolver weapons and also can induct rage in player and ally unit that stay in Deviator's mutation gas for short duration

:with this Deviator(Long range anti-infantry,siege,rage inductor) will be able to counter epsilon spamming infantry and will give epsilon another long range siege,anti-infantry but Deviator still weak vs unit and heavy building

3.could buff Archelon to be able attack unit and heal player and ally unit?

[legionnaire501]

i have some suggestion

1.Dybbuk-Seizer should become regular epsilon or psicorp unique unit

2.new Epsilon-Epsilon stolen tech unit will be Deviator(from MO3.0) that fire mutation gas like dybbuk-evolver weapons and also can induct rage in player and ally unit that stay in Deviator's mutation gas for short duration

:with this Deviator(Long range anti-infantry,siege,rage inductor) will be able to counter epsilon spamming infantry and will give epsilon another long range siege,anti-infantry but Deviator still weak vs unit and heavy building

3.could buff Archelon to be able attack unit and heal player and ally unit?

1 Dybbuk-s is a pretty powerful weapon to have in the regular arsenal and though it has its limitations against them i feel its a good fit as the epsilon STU

2 i dont know if you are the guy who asked about this earlier but speeder already shot down the possibility of the deviator coming back even with new tech

3 i think that with mind control immunity the archelon feels a bit stronger but personally i wouldn't mind a second weaker anti unit/building weapon but having that and repairing units is a little extreme

[John Carver]

Some ideas for the challenges. Some i took from RA3, and some by myself.

1: Challenge with no hero restrictions/cap (exept irkalla and centurion).
2. The "Revolution" challenge for the Allied side. With enemy constantly sending super future tanks or regular ones at you.
3. "Mechanized" challenge.
The description: "Some lonely Chineese (can be any?) commander somehow managed to establish a Centurion assembly line in large industrial base(?), wich allows mass production of this machines. Eleminate the factory base, before he transfer this intel to other Chineese.", I might work description better, but here`s the main point: besides oblivious "core" of the challenge, there might be some additional "gimmicks" - enemy is able to produce vehicles really fast, and even maybe multiple vehicles from multiple factories at once. And yeah, enemy will produce/send apocs at you also, and even maybe super apocs (wich i doubt, by the lore), aaand... maybe, some kind of "supercharged centurion" as commander experiments on improving the basic centurion. But also all centurions can be "equipped" with Volkovs to aqquire tesla bombs and chain lightings, not Yunru`s (exept AI builds it). Or just "clear centurions" without infantry in it, or with just a cyborgs wich will shred all infantry. But there must be minimum of 4 in each wave, and more.
But the main "theme" about units: maybe enemy AI will only use vehicles, most of them are heavy, and extra only heavy infantry. And, as a bonus - enemies will send the terror drone waves at you.
And, when ill get the FinalAlert operational again - ill try to make the map for this challenge.

4. From RA3 - scavenger. Might not be a challenge, but the skirmish one. Basically, map is flooded with depiloted vehicles of all factions, (maybe without foehn), so, you can get engineers and capture vehicles.
Another one taken from it: "Behind the Iron curtain", but this time - shield generators. Basically, all your buildings in your base will be invulnerable, exept your Shield command at the middle. The bad thing is - enemies will also have this.

5. Chrono-challenge. Not a Timekiller, still its uses one faction, Euro Alliance. The idea of this challenge: enemy will constantly chronosphere units across the battlefield. I mean, he even can teleport his tanks in rear of your base.
This challenge strongly is based on "time tech and teleportation". Mass chrono legioneers, quickshifters, and chronospheres. And even if superweapons disabled, there will be a timer of "chrono reinforcements". Basically, enemy will teleport tanks on the entire battlefield. And it can be teleported in rear of your base.
Also, the longer you play, the stronger units will appear - firstly T1, and on. So, overtime, reinforcements becoming more stronger, and can posess a big treat to you. Also, theres not only one chronoshift, but a multiple ones, so, it can appear everywhere unless you installed inhibitors.

I hope you got the main ideas of that challenges
Thru, they are silly, but fun.
 

[lovalmidas]

I am thinking the Chronosphere abuse may be featured in the All Allied challenge.