5129 replies to this topic

[Tathmesh]

Can we talk about the Pteranodon... Something about this unit needs to be changed. The fact that this unit can get to a critical mass that's almost impossible to beat and pretty much shred anything on the ground including anti air vehicles, infantry (to a decent effect) AND structures, is a bit absurd. Although what really makes this unit horrifying is it's mobility! A group of them can poke at your base where you army isn't guarding, if you DO have a force that can take the Pteranodons down, ie. Gehenna Platforms or mass anti air infantry, by the time you get to their position, the Pteranodons fly away.

Suggested changes to Pteranodon:

-They should do pretty much no damage to infantry, even in great mass.

-Can't target structures (If a Coronia want's to do base harassment, they should work a bit harder and be forced to bring slow, fragile Quetzals!)

-A bit less Hp

This way, the unit maintains what makes it a fun unit to use. Alternatively, I wouldn't be appose to making it much slower and much more fragile, while keeping it's damage output toward vehicles, infantry and structures as is.

Also I think the Foehn Signal Inhibitor should be removed. It's a defense building that encourages campy play, plain and simple. Part of Super Weapons' appeal is making it so you can break defensive players lines. I MIGHT understand the idea of foehn not having a super weapon in exchange for being able to build inhibitors, but even then, it would just encourage Foehn to camp.

Keep in mind building signal inhibitors is extremely costly and power intensive. IIRC one signal inhibitor is barely enough to cover all of your important tech structures. A superweapon could damage it along the rim of the SJ's range. You would probably need 2 for full coverage.

Building SJ also forces you into a specific base layout that's terrible against superweapons, because important tech structures are bundled together.

Have you tried spies or using siege aircraft like Basilisk to knockout power, then using superweapon to kill all their tech?

[PACER]

Can we talk about the Pteranodon... Something about this unit needs to be changed. The fact that this unit can get to a critical mass that's almost impossible to beat and pretty much shred anything on the ground including anti air vehicles, infantry (to a decent effect) AND structures, is a bit absurd. Although what really makes this unit horrifying is it's mobility! A group of them can poke at your base where you army isn't guarding, if you DO have a force that can take the Pteranodons down, ie. Gehenna Platforms or mass anti air infantry, by the time you get to their position, the Pteranodons fly away.
 
Suggested changes to Pteranodon:
 
-They should do pretty much no damage to infantry, even in great mass. 
 
-Can't target structures (If a Coronia want's to do base harassment, they should work a bit harder and be forced to bring slow, fragile Quetzals!)
 
-A bit less Hp
 
This way, the unit maintains what makes it a fun unit to use. Alternatively, I wouldn't be appose to making it much slower and much more fragile, while keeping it's damage output toward vehicles, infantry and structures as is. 
 
Also I think the Foehn Signal Inhibitor should be removed. It's a defense building that encourages campy play, plain and simple. Part of Super Weapons' appeal is making it so you can break defensive players lines. I MIGHT understand the idea of foehn not having a super weapon in exchange for being able to build inhibitors, but even then, it would just encourage Foehn to camp.

I used to complain about Pteranodons quite a lot. But then I realized how much it takes to mass such an expensive unit. You are supposed to counter them with something of the equal price, or at least 2/3 of the total price in the case of advanced AA units.
 
For example 20 Pters cost you $40000, for epsilon that means 320 archers. I believe there is few who have ever reached half of this number.


This is what 320 GIs look like

You would probably like to scatter them in order to to counter Pteranodons


Unfortunately RA2 engine dictates that you can only control 128 units at a time, gl with that :O

Edited by PACER, 10 November 2017 - 09:39 PM.

[PACER]

IMHO Pters do need a nerf, either decrease AoE radius to 2*2, or 3*3 with reduced damage to units away from the center.

[StolenTech]

 

Can we talk about the Pteranodon... Something about this unit needs to be changed. The fact that this unit can get to a critical mass that's almost impossible to beat and pretty much shred anything on the ground including anti air vehicles, infantry (to a decent effect) AND structures, is a bit absurd. Although what really makes this unit horrifying is it's mobility! A group of them can poke at your base where you army isn't guarding, if you DO have a force that can take the Pteranodons down, ie. Gehenna Platforms or mass anti air infantry, by the time you get to their position, the Pteranodons fly away.
 
Suggested changes to Pteranodon:
 
-They should do pretty much no damage to infantry, even in great mass. 
 
-Can't target structures (If a Coronia want's to do base harassment, they should work a bit harder and be forced to bring slow, fragile Quetzals!)
 
-A bit less Hp
 
This way, the unit maintains what makes it a fun unit to use. Alternatively, I wouldn't be appose to making it much slower and much more fragile, while keeping it's damage output toward vehicles, infantry and structures as is. 
 
Also I think the Foehn Signal Inhibitor should be removed. It's a defense building that encourages campy play, plain and simple. Part of Super Weapons' appeal is making it so you can break defensive players lines. I MIGHT understand the idea of foehn not having a super weapon in exchange for being able to build inhibitors, but even then, it would just encourage Foehn to camp.

I used to complain about Pteranodons quite a lot. But then I realized how much it takes to mass such an expensive unit. You are supposed to counter them with something of the equal price, or at least 2/3 of the total price in the case of advanced AA units.
 
For example 20 Pters cost you $40000, for epsilon that means 320 archers. I believe there is few who have ever reached half of this number.


This is what 320 GIs look like

You would probably like to scatter them in order to to counter Pteranodons


Unfortunately RA2 engine dictates that you can only control 128 units at a time, gl with that :O

 

that kind of mentality just does not work in this game, you can't compared prices when one of them deletes the other before it can react and I don't want to keep following the fast as fuck ptrenadons that can fly over obstacles with archers, what ptrenadons really need is an HP nerf with a production speed nerf OR a speed nerf with a rate of fire nerf.

Edited by StolenTech, 10 November 2017 - 09:54 PM.

[TeslaCruiser]

The pteranodon discussion again? hope you guys luck
 

Also, there is no changelog out yet for 3.3.3.
Which probably means we are still far from release date
So, I will ask this again: can we have a small update to fix finalize, please?

[Handepsilon]

 
For example 20 Pters cost you $40000, for epsilon that means 320 archers. I believe there is few who have ever reached half of this number.

 

 

Price means nothing if one type are not designed to damage the other. You'd have better luck with using Buzzards

Also, inhibitor has weak point : power consumption, the lack of proper spy detection and the fact that all Foehn power plants are fat, pricy and provides lot of power. Yes, the last one is a problem since that means taking out a power plant can result a serious power loss that will take a couple of minutes to restore due to the Windtrap price

Edited by Handepsilon, 11 November 2017 - 05:58 AM.

[doctormedic]

Psicorps is also a really good counter against coronia as their gehenas can take out pteranodons really easily,while magnetrons should keep most foehn infantry and vehicles away from your infantry.

[PACER]

For example 20 Pters cost you $40000, for epsilon that means 320 archers. I believe there is few who have ever reached half of this number.

 
Price means nothing if one type are not designed to damage the other. You'd have better luck with using Buzzards
Also, inhibitor has weak point : power consumption, the lack of proper spy detection and the fact that all Foehn power plants are fat, pricy and provides lot of power. Yes, the last one is a problem since that means taking out a power plant can result a serious power loss that will take a couple of minutes to restore due to the Windtrap price

I'm simply suggesting that we can only hope to counter units with our own of proportional cost, which is usually greatly underestimated in the case of Pters, as they cost quite a lot and often come in stacks hiding their real number

Edited by PACER, 11 November 2017 - 10:25 AM.

[Handepsilon]

Stacks are bad really, considering even one-target AA can shoot multiple stacked planes at once

[Tathmesh]

Also Zorbs, one of the most powerful anti-infantry in the game.

There's no way you'd be able to stack up to 320 archers, unless you're wasting your money by hording them in your base. Even two Zorbtrotters abusing Spinblades would pose a serious threat to any infantry blob that attempts to move out.

[PACER]

It's visually weird that Seitaad can fit into Tank Bunkers.

[Speeder]

There are weirder things.

[CalmPhill]

Fair points about the Signal Inhibitors, I just find them annoying. Especially on a big map, where if I wanted to sabotage Foehn's power, I'd have to hope the enemy doesn't see my spy on the long way to their base, or I'd have to implement a distraction to sneak some in via transport. Can super weapons one shot important buildings like power and tech of Foehn anyway? 

 

Seems like people are in agreement that Pters should get a nerf of some sort. The decrease AoE radius to 2*2, or 3*3 with reduced damage to units away from the center is an interesting suggestion. Though, even with that nerf, they should do way less damage to infantry and buildings, along with less hp. Even a speed nerf wouldn't be so bad. Pters can swing back and forth to defense and offense so quickly. Even when you have a sizable anti air infantry force, the only way to effectively pick away at the Pter's is to focus fire them down, but Pter's are always flying out of range of the slow infantry, making it extremely frustrating. 

Edited by CalmPhill, 12 November 2017 - 06:57 AM.

[Handepsilon]

Can super weapons one shot important buildings like power and tech of Foehn anyway?

Yes, they can. One good SW is very devastating. And even a near miss can be very painful

[CLAlstar]

Seems like people are in agreement that Pters should get a nerf of some sort. The decrease AoE radius to 2*2, or 3*3 with reduced damage to units away from the center is an interesting suggestion. Though, even with that nerf, they should do way less damage to infantry and buildings, along with less hp.

 

Imo if you actually did let enemy spam sufficient number of pteranodons to let him easily deal with massed anti air infantry then you deserve to lose that game.

 

Even when you have a sizable anti air infantry force, the only way to effectively pick away at the Pter's is to focus fire them down, but Pter's are always flying out of range of the slow infantry, making it extremely frustrating. 

 

There is no way for Pteras to not get damaged when flying into group of AA infantry and you know it well. Ptera range is 7.5, while all T1 AA infantry range is 9. Giantsbanes are 12. Even when attempting any kind of kiting, shots will be fired against them.

 

I'm simply suggesting that we can only hope to counter units with our own of proportional cost, which is usually greatly underestimated in the case of Pters, as they cost quite a lot and often come in stacks hiding their real number

You are not supposed to fight with equal unit cost numbers, but with actual idea of counters. It's like expecting to kill a Borillo with equal cost of anti-infantry units because "they should be fine since both sides cost the same".

[BlackAbsence]

Has anyone else noticed that the "great" tempest (alone) can't kill an epsilon lab w/ its expansion?

[StolenTech]

Has anyone else noticed that the "great" tempest (alone) can't kill an epsilon lab w/ its expansion?

it can. unless the plug was put on it just before it died, because expansion buildings fully-heal the building they get placed on such as allied powerplants or foehn expansions.

[BlackAbsence]

It can not: I just tested it. I tested it without the plug too, and whether or not there is one doesn't matter. The tempest cannot kill the an epsilon lab. I am using version 3.3.2 btw.

Edited by BlackAbsence, 12 November 2017 - 04:42 PM.

[CalmPhill]

 

Seems like people are in agreement that Pters should get a nerf of some sort. The decrease AoE radius to 2*2, or 3*3 with reduced damage to units away from the center is an interesting suggestion. Though, even with that nerf, they should do way less damage to infantry and buildings, along with less hp.

 

Imo if you actually did let enemy spam sufficient number of pteranodons to let him easily deal with massed anti air infantry then you deserve to lose that game. 

 

 

 

When I had the most problem with Pters, it was a ffa on a big map, though I didn't think mentioning it was important due to Pters being the only unit that seems capable of quickly getting out of hand with their numbers. What I always loved about StarCraft was that even units in extreme numbers had counters, there was no unit that had the design of "well, did you let them get that many?". 

 

 

 

Even when you have a sizable anti air infantry force, the only way to effectively pick away at the Pter's is to focus fire them down, but Pter's are always flying out of range of the slow infantry, making it extremely frustrating. 

 

There is no way for Pteras to not get damaged when flying into group of AA infantry and you know it well. Ptera range is 7.5, while all T1 AA infantry range is 9. Giantsbanes are 12. Even when attempting any kind of kiting, shots will be fired against them.

 

 

 

 

The Pters are going to get damaged, obviously, but that doesn't matter much if the Pters fly by without dying. If we're talking about a massive group of anti air infantry, then it wouldn't matter too much how fast the Pters are flying by, some will go down. If you don't have a (pure estimate here) 10 to 1 Pter anti air infantry army, you will struggle to focus fire any of the Pters down. Then the Pters will fly away and self repair. I don't think Pters should be this unit where a player can ask "why wouldn't I build them?". 

 

 

 

Edited by CalmPhill, 12 November 2017 - 11:56 PM.

[Handepsilon]

It can not: I just tested it. I tested it without the plug too, and whether or not there is one doesn't matter. The tempest cannot kill the an epsilon lab. I am using version 3.3.2 btw.

I think this is because unlike other SWs which gives instant huge damage, the Tempest applies damage overtime. The Pandora Hub might die if no repair is done to them while tempest occurs