5129 replies to this topic

[Spinosaurus]

Ok lets talk about russia. They are getting a new sock trooper, im going to guess, so lets assume that is going to be buffed. Lets assume that the new shock trooper is going to hit at tier 3, and that Russia loses its earlier shock trooper? 

 

How could this faction be nerfed:

- Slowing down scud missiles would be a pretty damn big nerf. 

-wolfhounds are already kinda manageable, but by far the strongest flying helicopter type unit outside of WoC i think they are fine, IMO. 

-Maybe if tesla cruiser loses EMP effect, which gets moved to shock trooper. 

Or you guys could just give Boris back to them. The Not-sniper Morales, which fits Russia's "high mobility", since Boris is fast and hits hard, still using migs to blow structures up?

[Handepsilon]

I'm pretty sure those greener non-snow terrain was custom. In any case, they wouldn't give much advantage to tan color. MO on the other hand uses a more vanilla-esque terrain aside from Desert. Desert terrain in Mo itself is enough justification why Tan would be very advantageous in minimap

Anyways, Boris would be too similar to Morales though. He's like if someone put Tanya's quick allrounder shots and Morales everything else together. It wouldn't be that much interesting for MM to consider.

Scuds could do with missile HP nerf and height adjustment imo

[Spinosaurus]

I'm pretty sure those greener non-snow terrain was custom. In any case, they wouldn't give much advantage to tan color. MO on the other hand uses a more vanilla-esque terrain aside from Desert. Desert terrain in Mo itself is enough justification why Tan would be very advantageous in minimap

That is true...your forces would be invisible to radar. A few Empire at War mods had that issue: Black was a color you could pick, which made the Empire look much better, however because you're in space, your fighter icons were hard to see in the backdrop, and I couldn't even tell where my own forces were half the time.  I can see the reason behind why Tan isn't used, a shame, but understandable.

 

Regarding Russia, I think the LC should get the Shock trooper and lose their Tesla Trooper. Honestly, Russia is boring and very basic; they are a tutorial nation for the soviets if anything.

 

If Volkov and Chitzkoi are literally the main highlight or "what one looks forward to" when play as Russia? Thats pretty bad. It means the rest of their army may as well not exist.

Plus while Volkov is easy to manage, you have to worry about where Chitzkoi is, as he just runs after enemies like they are scooby snacks. Its very distracting to keep track of both heroes.

 

This is why in my opinion, the Latin Confederation and China are a lot better with their heroes -Morales is easy to track for the player since they sit back as a sniper, and Yunru is a mostly support character (who also can destroy buildings too).

Personally, and I've said this in a different post, Krukov and Reznov are much easier to manage and keep track of, since they are a better "dynamic duo" and have their own strengths and weaknesses.

 

More or less they are a "weaker" Fin and Alize for the Soviets. Which coincidentally, would help prepare you for playing Haihead, since they too have a "dynamic duo", that are also easier to keep track of.

[Handepsilon]

they are a tutorial nation for the soviets the entire MO factions if anything.

 

FTFY

 

I unfortunately understood why Krukov and Reznov were too subpar to be considered a multiplayer hero. They indeed were just an upgraded Desolator and Sniper/SEAL.

 

With that being said, isn't Volkov just a fancier Tesla Trooper and Chizkoi a fancier Terror Drone tho

[Spinosaurus]

 

they are a tutorial nation for the soviets the entire MO factions if anything.

 

FTFY

 

I unfortunately understood why Krukov and Reznov were too subpar to be considered a multiplayer hero. They indeed were just an upgraded Desolator and Sniper/SEAL.

 

With that being said, isn't Volkov just a fancier Tesla Trooper and Chizkoi a fancier Terror Drone tho

 

Desolators and a Sniper/Seal would be super useful, instead of some Christian Bale cyborg and mecha-scooby doo.

 

Volkov is just an overweight tesla trooper (til he is Star veteran) with the tesla cruiser's tesla stun when he lands a hit. Chitzkoi is just a husky-terror drone...which is not required. 

 

You can spam terror drones like crazy until it looks like Operation Anchorage, and Tesla Troopers should be spammed to work with tank column units.

 

Desolators truly can only be "spammed" when or if your economy can support such a thing, so you really can only use a couple of them. Unless you want to be like Germany in the waning months of WW2 -Tiger Tanks driving back and forth to support different areas-, use them sparingly. Funnily enough the Soviets have a lot more infantry variety compared to the Allies, yet they don't have a sniper unit; Reznov would be that awesome rarity unit.

[CrimsonRaider]

Removing Volkov and his dog is BS. Spamming terror drones and tesla troopers instead is... well, spamming (=cancer, brainless).
Disabling the emp-effect of the tesla cruisers completely would make the unit a complete garbage compared to the other T3 monsters.
Decreasing the HP AND the height AND the speed of the V3 would make the scud launcher useless.
Why not nerfing both of them just a bit? Removing the emp-effect only in rookie and veteran states, and only decreasing the height of the rocket just a bit - let's say dreadnought rocket-style.

Also: Anti-air specialized taskforces in SP? Because its not hard to destroy complete bases with 6-7 wolfhounds/thors or 3 quetzals/kirovs.
Speaking of bases: why does the epsilon have sooo much power surplus compared to everybody else? You only need to destroy one power producing building - nuclear reactor for the soviets, not the other one (it's still as easy as destroying one lil' reactor)?
Most of the time a simple wallbuster is enough to bring darkness to the 3 others, while sometimes a nuclear missilie or a madman isn't enough to do that in an epsilon base.

Edited by CrimsonRaider, 09 April 2019 - 06:48 AM.

[Handepsilon]

Removing Volkov and his dog is BS. Spamming terror drones and tesla troopers instead is... well, spamming (=cancer, brainless).
Disabling the emp-effect of the tesla cruisers completely would make the unit a complete garbage compared to the other T3 monsters.
Decreasing the HP AND the height AND the speed of the V3 would make the scud launcher useless.
Why not nerfing both of them just a bit? Removing the emp-effect only in rookie and veteran states, and only decreasing the height of the rocket just a bit - let's say dreadnought rocket-style.

Also: Anti-air specialized taskforces in SP? Because its not hard to destroy complete bases with 6-7 wolfhounds/thors or 3 quetzals/kirovs.
Speaking of bases: why does the epsilon have sooo much power surplus compared to everybody else? You only need to destroy one power producing building - nuclear reactor for the soviets, not the other one (it's still as easy as destroying one lil' reactor)?
Most of the time a simple wallbuster is enough to bring darkness to the 3 others, while sometimes a nuclear missilie or a madman isn't enough to do that in an epsilon base.

TBH, I'm fine if they keep the speed, so I only said HP and Height. Decreasing the speed would indeed make Scud useless. I still remember RA2 vanilla's slowass V3 Launcher, and obviously that's something to avoid.

 

And as for air, yeah. Air is something that the AI especially have trouble dealing with. I still remember a lot of times where the AI can be cheesed through air in challenges, which led to a lot of mappers spamming AA to kingdom come.

 

Also, if you meant AI Epsilon. It's because of how small the base power for Bio Reactor is, which led to the AI spamming the reactors a lot more than necessary. I think after they had enough power just using base power, they then decided to fill some of them, which of course cause them to get surplus power. Considering how random AI acts, this could very well be the case

 

---

 

Anyways, I've been thinking a lot more about Speeder's post. He said 'There's something for everybody', which I had just realized could mean that Shock Troopers, Ruiner and Waveshaper aren't the only addition that we'll see. If he truly meant 'everybody', we might actually see more additions to other (sub)factions rather than just these three.

 

If not, well, fingers crossed on the balance tweaks.

Edited by Handepsilon, 09 April 2019 - 07:37 AM.

[Spinosaurus]

 

Removing Volkov and his dog is BS. Spamming terror drones and tesla troopers instead is... well, spamming (=cancer, brainless).
Disabling the emp-effect of the tesla cruisers completely would make the unit a complete garbage compared to the other T3 monsters.
Decreasing the HP AND the height AND the speed of the V3 would make the scud launcher useless.
Why not nerfing both of them just a bit? Removing the emp-effect only in rookie and veteran states, and only decreasing the height of the rocket just a bit - let's say dreadnought rocket-style.

Also: Anti-air specialized taskforces in SP? Because its not hard to destroy complete bases with 6-7 wolfhounds/thors or 3 quetzals/kirovs.
Speaking of bases: why does the epsilon have sooo much power surplus compared to everybody else? You only need to destroy one power producing building - nuclear reactor for the soviets, not the other one (it's still as easy as destroying one lil' reactor)?
Most of the time a simple wallbuster is enough to bring darkness to the 3 others, while sometimes a nuclear missilie or a madman isn't enough to do that in an epsilon base.

TBH, I'm fine if they keep the speed, so I only said HP and Height. Decreasing the speed would indeed make Scud useless. I still remember RA2 vanilla's slowass V3 Launcher, and obviously that's something to avoid.

 

And as for air, yeah. Air is something that the AI especially have trouble dealing with. I still remember a lot of times where the AI can be cheesed through air in challenges, which led to a lot of mappers spamming AA to kingdom come.

 

Also, if you meant AI Epsilon. It's because of how small the base power for Bio Reactor is, which led to the AI spamming the reactors a lot more than necessary. I think after they had enough power just using base power, they then decided to fill some of them, which of course cause them to get surplus power. Considering how random AI acts, this could very well be the case

 

---

 

Anyways, I've been thinking a lot more about Speeder's post. He said 'There's something for everybody', which I had just realized could mean that Shock Troopers, Ruiner and Waveshaper aren't the only addition that we'll see. If he truly meant 'everybody', we might actually see more additions to other (sub)factions rather than just these three.

 

If not, well, fingers crossed on the balance tweaks.

 

I do certainly hope every subfaction gets something cool and new.

 

What is the waveshaper? Is that something new for the Allies or Foehn?

[Handepsilon]

Foehn, according to some rumors, it's a limited AoE Raccoon

 

 

Though, that being said, I think Allied got a new major change already, but I can't really say it equalized much :

 

Edited by Handepsilon, 09 April 2019 - 09:42 AM.

[Spinosaurus]

Foehn, according to some rumors, it's a limited AoE Raccoon

 

 

Though, that being said, I think Allied got a new major change already, but I can't really say it equalized much :

 

 

 

 

Oh...I'd have hoped it was to allow Coronia to Knightfall in the beacon's radius, because on;y being able to hot-drop in your OWN barrack's tiny radius is....worthless.

 

So...the Cordnode is chronobased now? Seems kind of pointless...don't we already have chrono...swap or whatever its called that teleports a building only a few steps away?

Edited by Spinosaurus, 09 April 2019 - 10:48 AM.

[CrimsonRaider]

Or maybe it extends the chronolift's area somehow on top of the damage buff? I hope so, because it would compensate for gap generator's uselessness in PvE. For the EU at least.
Is the waveshaper in the game files since... foenh came out?

[Handepsilon]

No, the damage buff is removed. The coordnode will be replaced as Chronolift area booster and becomes available for all Allied, from what I heard. Using that logic, you can transport from outpost to outpost with Chronolift if you have it on each expansions. Probably limited in number like Iron Guard tho

In all honesty though, I've been out of loop from the news since I left the MO discord due to... personal issues, so these are months old news. There might be changes in the plan, but that's at least what several insider info said at the time it was posted

As for Waveshaper, actually it's already in the editor atm

Edited by Handepsilon, 09 April 2019 - 11:56 AM.

[Divine]

What would you guys think of a complete revamping of the garrison system? Think of something like how it works in DoW2 or C&C Generals. Almost all infantry would be garrisonable, but all weapons would penetrate the walls to some degree, and the firepower / range bonus garrisoned infantry get would not be that substantial. Bullet-based weapons would have varying chance to damage garrisoned infantry, while explosives in general would have a chance to insta kill. If you are in a room where a tank hits, it's bad for the health, after all. Flamethrowers, acid sprays, snipers, and whatever else common sense dictates would be obviously devastating. The goal would be to make garrisons work like a temporary way to increase the survivability of infantry but with more variety, instead of semi-permanent defensive positions with only t1 infantry.

Edited by Divine, 09 April 2019 - 12:54 PM.

[Handepsilon]

The problem is, doing so would need a total revamp on garrison logic, something I don't think AlexB would be able to pull off in moments time, if ever.

You see, Garrison is... to put it bluntly, communism in terms of anything other than projectile and damage. Here's the example
- You can't make part of garrison weapons not hit some type of armors while others do.
- If there are types of unit inside garrison firing at slower rate than the one with fastest rate, they will copy the fastest rate. This is already visible within archers and initiate, flaks and conscript etc. Now imagine snipers firing as fast as a GI.
- Range may also be affected by above condition. I don't think you'd like to see T1 Anti Tanks sniping artilleries. Do you ever wonder why Lancers fires at better range in buildings?

Also, making explosives instakill garrisons in a tank oriented RTS mod is just promoting to NOT garrison buildings even more

Edited by Handepsilon, 09 April 2019 - 01:23 PM.

[CrimsonRaider]

So AA garrison is not a thing. UNLESS you fill the building with only AA infantry (I tried it, I failed, and that's what Handepsilon said why I guess ).

What about adding the barracudas the bunker-buster effect? Prety much the riot trooper flashbang. Since they are the 'aircraft artillery' of the allieds, but they're jets, they are a bit behind of the others I think.

Edited by CrimsonRaider, 09 April 2019 - 02:06 PM.

[Tathmesh]

Foehn, according to some rumors, it's a limited AoE Raccoon



Though, that being said, I think Allied got a new major change already, but I can't really say it equalized much :

Oh...I'd have hoped it was to allow Coronia to Knightfall in the beacon's radius, because on;y being able to hot-drop in your OWN barrack's tiny radius is....worthless.

So...the Cordnode is chronobased now? Seems kind of pointless...don't we already have chrono...swap or whatever its called that teleports a building only a few steps away?

Knightfall isn't suppose to be like US paradrop. It just makes spamming Foehn infantry more cost effective over time. It saves $$$ if your enemy lets you have it for too long.

If coordnode can keep firepower buff it would be an interesting addition for EA. You can chronolift a square of defenses to whatever coordnode you want.

Edited by Tathmesh, 09 April 2019 - 05:18 PM.

[Divine]

The problem is, doing so would need a total revamp on garrison logic, something I don't think AlexB would be able to pull off in moments time, if ever.

You see, Garrison is... to put it bluntly, communism in terms of anything other than projectile and damage. Here's the example
- You can't make part of garrison weapons not hit some type of armors while others do.
- If there are types of unit inside garrison firing at slower rate than the one with fastest rate, they will copy the fastest rate. This is already visible within archers and initiate, flaks and conscript etc. Now imagine snipers firing as fast as a GI.
- Range may also be affected by above condition. I don't think you'd like to see T1 Anti Tanks sniping artilleries. Do you ever wonder why Lancers fires at better range in buildings?

Also, making explosives instakill garrisons in a tank oriented RTS mod is just promoting to NOT garrison buildings even more

I didn't know that thing about the ROF and range, I always assumed they happened because the garrison weapons were like that. Maybe one day Ares will fix it. As for the insta-kill thing, I thought of a low chance, like 10%/shot. The entire point of what I proposed was that garrisons on one hand would be more versatile if almost all infantry could use them, but would be less safe if almost everything could bypass them to a certain degree.

[Spinosaurus]

Foehn, according to some rumors, it's a limited AoE Raccoon



Though, that being said, I think Allied got a new major change already, but I can't really say it equalized much :

Oh...I'd have hoped it was to allow Coronia to Knightfall in the beacon's radius, because on;y being able to hot-drop in your OWN barrack's tiny radius is....worthless.

So...the Cordnode is chronobased now? Seems kind of pointless...don't we already have chrono...swap or whatever its called that teleports a building only a few steps away?

Knightfall isn't suppose to be like US paradrop. It just makes spamming Foehn infantry more cost effective over time. It saves $$$ if your enemy lets you have it for too long.

Cost effective...? Just build more than one barracks? You can spam way better that way.

Knightfall should be the better US paradrop, because Coronia is in a flying airship above the battlefield. They should be able to theoretically drop their men anywhere that you can see on the map.

They do thatbto you in Firestorm challenge so why can't WE do it?

[Spinosaurus]

Also no, don't redo the garrison system. Last thing you need is rapid fire snipers, rapid fire adepts, rapis fire stalkers, rapid fire pyros, rapid fire RAD cannons, and rapid fire heroes.

Plus even with a low 10% chance of instant death from a tank or other, would as one stated makes you not garrison anything ever again.

And no don't make the Barracuda a bunker buster plane. Its anti-structure for a reason.

If you want a bunker buster plane, make a completely new plane instead, like a weird F-117 Nighthawk...or something like that. Heck, replace the useless Humming Bird with it.

But then again...do you really want to turn this into CnC Generals? The game where balance is a myth?

Edited by Spinosaurus, 09 April 2019 - 07:18 PM.

[Divine]

Also no, don't redo the garrison system. Last thing you need is rapid fire snipers, rapid fire adepts, rapis fire stalkers, rapid fire pyros, rapid fire RAD cannons, and rapid fire heroes.

Plus even with a low 10% chance of instant death from a tank or other, would as one stated makes you not garrison anything ever again.

And no don't make the Barracuda a bunker buster plane. Its anti-structure for a reason.

If you want a bunker buster plane, make a completely new plane instead, like a weird F-117 Nighthawk...or something like that. Heck, replace the useless Humming Bird with it.

But then again...do you really want to turn this into CnC Generals? The game where balance is a myth?

Well, when I brainstormed this idea I rly didn't know that ROF would be inevitably affected... Obviously I don't want rapid fire everything. I was thinking more along the lines of DoW2 than Generals, tho. In that game, garrisons are basically just overglorified cover (as they should be). They give a momentary adventage to infantry by improving their survivability somewhat, but they aren't good enough to be used permanently. In Generals, you have some dedicated anti-garrison and that's all. I'd like to see dedicated anti-garrison weapons destroying occupants, but even normal weapons putting a dent in them.