376 replies to this topic

[Flandre]

I find it fascinating how the air factions always seem to have the best aa (usa,coronia)

 

china and epsilon not withstanding.

 

Nah. Epsilon AA can be a problem over time.

 

One faction has Gehenna's, the other had those Colossus Siege Tanks while the other is that acid sprayer that makes kirovs drop faster lol

 

then again, it is all about proper deploying...

[CalmPhill]

walls on slopes look awful, just try to connect some in the map editor and see how they'll look (I'm taking about vanilla map editor, you don't even need MO one to see that).

Blasticade under-usage is just bound to players and how they use what they have, why should I get a blasticade that drains power, and trenches that take time and still also drain power, when I can get an unkillable death machine for 3k or a weapon of mass destruction on wheels. I have seen blasticades used in some niche situations to some effect, but foehn just suffers heavily from being so bloated imo.

Haihead for example has so many cool units to choose from, but people(and I am speaking in general here, I know some actual haihead players don't fall into this category) will only use megalodons, FinAlize and MADMAN. Why ? because you don't need anything else, why should I pay for a suicidal unit that can't kill a T3 tank on it's own when I can pay for one that can delete an entire army, or get ranged infantry deleters that also happen to damage buildings very well when I can just bring in Megalodons with Megashield that will insta-kill blobs of infantry and march through them while taking minimal damage, shred tanks and buildings alike in mere seconds. or why should I use syncronins/syncronauts when half of my arsenal already kills buildings in mere seconds as previously stated.

this is the problem that needs to be fixed with foehn, they have so many things that overlap and some are better than others, and instead of making each useful in their own right under-used things are getting unnecessary buffs like Eureka(she can actually survive 4 jets unlike most heroes, and still getting HP buffed ?), who in my experience in 3.3.2 was an amazing tank killer, same with Tarchias which I actually used to siege and even kill epic units and ward off Abrams hoards, but they just get overshadowed by the unkillable death blob that is the ptrenadons, why should I bother with anything that I have when I can just mass those and win with minimal effort (if you hadn't already guessed Coronia atm is just a point and click adventure).

 

I think Foehn has some interesting design elements, but I totally agree that Foehn needs some big tweaks. People seem to think Pter's aoe is the biggest problem, basically no unit should be able to get to critical mass and its aoe is the major factor. Spreading units to fight Pters takes a lot more effort compared to what the Pter player has to do and spreading units isn't even that effective.

 

MADMAN is a pretty brain dead unit imo. There's really nothing discouraging players from making MADMAN after MADMAN and trying to send it in due to it's ability to take out armies. My suggestion is make it later tech and have it so there's a cool down for when you can make it, like the Harbinger. Alternatively, I don't think it would be such a bad idea to make it so you can only make one MADMAN per game, this would force Haihead players to be extra careful using this unit. Another separate idea for a nerf is making it so it does very little damage to armies in general and just have it as a building killer. 

 

Megalodons are still a problem too, they don't require much thought to use and overlap the role of the shadray. I'd suggest reduce Megalodon's damage against buildings. And as far as a nerf in general, leave their damage the same and make them really slow, so opponents can kite them, while a megaarena would bring the Megalodon's speed back up. This would also encourage Haihead players to make sure they have a megaarena on stand by to get the best out of it. 

Edited by CalmPhill, 24 January 2018 - 05:15 PM.

[JackoDerp]

Blasticade is underappreciated because the investment required is almost never worth the payout you get.
Having said all that, actual changes needed to it would be minimal and I think players don't use it enough.

Foxtrots are pretty much perfect as-is. Their Armour damage is already plenty enough.
 

 

- nerf: Prism Tank price increased from $1400 to $1450
- nerf: Dustdevil price increased from $1400 to $1450, strength decreased from 420 to 400
+ buff: Rocketeer price decreased from $550 to $500
- nerf: Stalker strength decreased from 340 to 300, price increased from $1450 to $1500
+ buff: Dybbuk-Attacker price decreased from $1100 to $1050
+ buff: Plague Splatter accuracy increased, price decreased from $800 to $750, firepower increased from 120 to 135
+ buff: Shadray price decreased from $1650 to $1600

These $50 price nerfs/buffs are unnecessary for these units, they just don't do anything in the short or long term.

 

I'm not sure on this, for the more expensive things like Prisms and Stalkers (especially stalkers) it doesn't mean a lot, I agree.
For something thats cheaper more spammable and used in numbers (Rocketeers, Plague Splatters), its a nice little extra.
You didn't mention the Archer cost change (250->220) but since it falls into this category I'll just mention it.

Now, moving more onto Rocketeers:

Are they weak units? Kinda.
Does the $50 nerf change a lot about them? Not a huge amount, but I still like to use them every so often and they have somewhat niche-various uses so I like this change. I would like to see *minor* (and I mean minor) improvements to their weapon, they're on the cusp of going mental IMO.
Doing what Northfirez does and throw them into Sentinels and Flak Cannons, which are, you know, designed to kill Rocketeers and then complain they don't work, then go play Vanilla RA2 or something, thats not how MO works.

Current stance is theres little that needs to be changed about Rocketeers, its just that players will use something like a SEAL or an IFV to fix that problem instead, which is fine. (I'll come back to IFVs in a second)

 

Moving onto Pteranodons: With the incoming buffs to flaks the faction who had by far the biggest problem with them, won't have so much of a problem anymore. (I'm referring to Soviets in general, but Latin players everywhere rejoice).

I don't see too many problems with Pteranodons, all these suggestions I'm seeing will (literally) nerf them into the ground. Only changes I'd recommend are a slight HP nerf to punish players who just group them up into a blob and try to steamroll stuff, and it would weaken the classic "Buzzard + Pteranodon" Megablobs that seem rather popular. In terms of Coronia as a whole, their one big problem unit has been taken care of (The Roadrunner) and they seem pretty reasonable to me now.

 

Just finishing on a small note with IFVs, I'm not seeing nerfs in the changelog to the GI/SEAL IFVs, and this scares me. I *really* do not want to see them in 3.3.3 in the same state that they are already, else I'll just main Allies and lol IFV stuff.

[TeslaCruiser]

I still think the cost/power equation in this mod works in a weird way when it comes to foehn. One of the reasons is how battles take place; space is a special kind of resource, and when the units can use a smaller portion of ground that means they are more effective than others.
I also think Foehn should be made less powerful early game, pretty much like vanilla allies -thus forcing a defensive early game, this way you can keep the tech advantage late.
Some elements of Foehn design seem to point to this direction, like how minermites can support themselves, how Sonic Emitter works, the Stun Grid, Turmoil Grid, and all the late game things who complement so well the mighty Foehn fortress.
So this is what I propose:
Less cost and less power for Knightframes -something like -$100 / -30hp / slightly RoF reduction.
Less damage and  -0,5 range for Kingsframe
And for Jackals a -$100 / -1 Speed / -20HP
In conjunction, Nanofiber Sync AoE should be reduced a bit to affect no more than 35-40 infantry units.

 

[NorthFireZ]

Never complained here Rocketeers don’t work, only implied that they were disappointing.

@Jacko Do you think Petras are fine at its current stage when it can blow up most counters or out run them. Is reducing “slight” amounts of HP going to be enough? Is both a speed nerf and a hp nerf appropriate? Do other factions besides Soviets already have a easy time dealing with Petras? What are the problems involved for Coronia if a nerf for the Petra goes through? What were the exact changes proposed that will nerf the Petra “literally” into the ground? What is the benefit between your slight hp nerf suggestion and their suggestions? Would Coronia be strong even after the nerfs?

[Damfoos]

 What were the exact changes proposed that will nerf the Petra “literally” into the ground?

 

What if Pteranodon was a land unit or had Tarchia's weapon while Tarchia would have Pteranodon's?

[Endless]

What if pteranodons never existed?
: ^ )

[JackoDerp]

 

@Jacko Do you think Petras are fine at its current stage when it can blow up most counters or out run them.

 

Pteranodons are supposed to be fast, and most AA is supposed to be slow/stationary. Not everything is an Aeroblaze, learn to position your units better.

 

 

Is reducing “slight” amounts of HP going to be enough? Is both a speed nerf and a hp nerf appropriate?

 

Depends what level of speed nerf we're talking about, considering they've already had one.

 

 

Do other factions besides Soviets already have a easy time dealing with Petras?

 

 

Lets go through the list:

 

China: Sentinels, Flak Troopers, Centy (kinda)

Russia: Wolfies. Ez.

Latin: Flaktastrophe (Getting buffed as well)

USA: Aeroblazes, GGIs

Euro Alliance: Thors

Pacific Front: Blizzards (which are getting a sweet buff), BattleTorts

Psicorps: Gehennas, Archers

HQ: Irkalla, Colossi, Archers

Scorpion Cell: Archers, Oxidisiers, Malver Deploy

Haihead: Uhhh.... Knightframes, Teratorns are getting buffed maybe them?

Coronia: Alanqas can play positions at least, otherwise, see Haihead.

Last Bastion: lul Giantsbanes

 

So out of that list I'd say only Haihead and Coronia (lol) could experience problems, but why would you make pteranodons against Coronia?

 

 

What are the problems involved for Coronia if a nerf for the Petra goes through? What were the exact changes proposed that will nerf the Petra “literally” into the ground? What is the benefit between your slight hp nerf suggestion and their suggestions?

I'm pointing out that some people are going way overboard in saying NERF PTERANODONS!!! THEYRE OP AS FUCK!!!

And realistically they're not *that* big a deal.

 

 

Would Coronia be strong even after the nerfs?

Is grass green?

Overnerfing Pteranodons would negate the entire point of having their airforce though. At which point you might as just well make a massive blob of Nanosynced dudes and mass Roadrunners again.

[TeslaCruiser]

So you can make a list of AA units... congratz

About the Blasticade, exactly what StolenTech says.
This also reminds me something: You would think this super weapon fits LB the most since it is supposedly your best bet to play defensive. Big surprise... what you do as LB tryhard is to use Plasmerizer as your Ultimate Siege Weapon.
So, you send an MCV near to enemy base and use the Plasmerizer there.
Having this offensive usage into account Godsbane anti-structure damage becomes overkill.
Without knowing anything about engine possibilities I would like to ask for some way to restring Plasmerizer usage as "Ultimate Offensive weapon" by allowing its deployment only near the starting position.
Alternative approach: make it unable of damaging structures. Right now its damage to structures isn't great but the splash area is big enough to cause some good damage to multiple buildings.

[Divine]

 

 

@Jacko Do you think Petras are fine at its current stage when it can blow up most counters or out run them.

 

Pteranodons are supposed to be fast, and most AA is supposed to be slow/stationary. Not everything is an Aeroblaze, learn to position your units better.

 

 

Is reducing “slight” amounts of HP going to be enough? Is both a speed nerf and a hp nerf appropriate?

 

Depends what level of speed nerf we're talking about, considering they've already had one.

 

 

Do other factions besides Soviets already have a easy time dealing with Petras?

 

 

Lets go through the list:

 

China: Sentinels, Flak Troopers, Centy (kinda)

Russia: Wolfies. Ez.

Latin: Flaktastrophe (Getting buffed as well)

USA: Aeroblazes, GGIs

Euro Alliance: Thors

Pacific Front: Blizzards (which are getting a sweet buff), BattleTorts

Psicorps: Gehennas, Archers

HQ: Irkalla, Colossi, Archers

Scorpion Cell: Archers, Oxidisiers, Malver Deploy

Haihead: Uhhh.... Knightframes, Teratorns are getting buffed maybe them?

Coronia: Alanqas can play positions at least, otherwise, see Haihead.

Last Bastion: lul Giantsbanes

 

So out of that list I'd say only Haihead and Coronia (lol) could experience problems, but why would you make pteranodons against Coronia?

 

 

What are the problems involved for Coronia if a nerf for the Petra goes through? What were the exact changes proposed that will nerf the Petra “literally” into the ground? What is the benefit between your slight hp nerf suggestion and their suggestions?

I'm pointing out that some people are going way overboard in saying NERF PTERANODONS!!! THEYRE OP AS FUCK!!!

And realistically they're not *that* big a deal.

 

 

Would Coronia be strong even after the nerfs?

Is grass green?

Overnerfing Pteranodons would negate the entire point of having their airforce though. At which point you might as just well make a massive blob of Nanosynced dudes and mass Roadrunners again.

 

For the record, Gehennas stop working in the moment there are Alanquas mixed in with the pteras. The interceptors will be shot down. 

[Handepsilon]

Well Archers still work. Alanqa's also slow af compared to the other fleet.

[Flandre]

Archers are best use for AA when anything else can't.

 

Well as long said air unit isn't made for tearing infantry.

[mrvecz]

So you can make a list of AA units... congratz

About the Blasticade, exactly what StolenTech says.
This also reminds me something: You would think this super weapon fits LB the most since it is supposedly your best bet to play defensive. Big surprise... what you do as LB tryhard is to use Plasmerizer as your Ultimate Siege Weapon.
So, you send an MCV near to enemy base and use the Plasmerizer there.
Having this offensive usage into account Godsbane anti-structure damage becomes overkill.
Without knowing anything about engine possibilities I would like to ask for some way to restring Plasmerizer usage as "Ultimate Offensive weapon" by allowing its deployment only near the starting position.
Alternative approach: make it unable of damaging structures. Right now its damage to structures isn't great but the splash area is big enough to cause some good damage to multiple buildings.

 

I prefer the alternative aproach, so you arent punished for relocating base or for explanding your base to other resource locations.

But on other hand, its your failure for letting that happen, if its close eneugh to your base you should have been capable of overwhelming it with units.

[Handepsilon]

You can try to overwhelm it if it's close enough and unguarded. That's usually not the case. The Plasmerizer is usually capable of firing its' charged laser on the enemy before they reach the gun.

And if it's unguarded, lol Godsbanes stun everyone

[Death_Kitty]

@JackoDerp about pteras (no i am not letting it die)

 

Nice list of "counters" that might work assuming you AA was immobile when the pteras attack (b/c splash)... on top of the fact that pteras never come alone. roadrunner to kill AA (splash), skystations to knock out gehennas like handepsilon said (plus anti infantry splash!), new buffed eureka to kill more AA (so much splash) quetzal and new buffed tarchia to kill stationary(arty w splash), zorbs, kingframes, buzzards, knightframes, (all of which have splash) take your pick to kill infantry, and if all else fails, use one of 2 super weapons! (get the theme here? give you a hint: splash)

 

Wings of Coronia gets my ire for being the most egregious of the foehn faction but make no mistake I loathe the other 2 only a little bit less. What the hell is up with fiehn, WoC especially being so AoE-heavy. Mental omega is not build for having many units that can do splash damage. Look at the first 3 faction, how much splash you find there? What there is/was has either been significantly penalized (nuwa, tyrant, splatter, athena, fury) flat out removed (mercury ifv) nerfed (foxtrot, prism tank), limited to 1 unit (cent, irkalla, kov, siegfired) or required actual micro (vulture, fury, foxtrot) and the list goes on. Foehn... nope none of that. This game, this mod is not designed for splash, its not healthy for it, at yet foehn is overflowing with it. 

 

WoC

-undo ptera speed/health nerfs, undo even buff the damage, remove the AoE

-road runner loses its splash, or its damage. MO does not need death balls. or have it lose its iron curtain after stunning its self. I hat this unit more than the ptera. 

-knightframe loses splash

-harbinger gets turned into anti unit support power with far less health. that or its splash get turned down.

-zorb loses its splash

-kingframes splash tuned down

 More to come. Im doing a full post on this when i have time.

[Handepsilon]

Divine pointed out the Alanqa, not me

[JackoDerp]

@JackoDerp about pteras (no i am not letting it die)

 

Nice list of "counters" that might work assuming you AA was immobile when the pteras attack (b/c splash)... on top of the fact that pteras never come alone. roadrunner to kill AA (splash), skystations to knock out gehennas like handepsilon said (plus anti infantry splash!), new buffed eureka to kill more AA (so much splash) quetzal and new buffed tarchia to kill stationary(arty w splash), zorbs, kingframes, buzzards, knightframes, (all of which have splash) take your pick to kill infantry, and if all else fails, use one of 2 super weapons! (get the theme here? give you a hint: splash)

 

Wings of Coronia gets my ire for being the most egregious of the foehn faction but make no mistake I loathe the other 2 only a little bit less. What the hell is up with fiehn, WoC especially being so AoE-heavy. Mental omega is not build for having many units that can do splash damage. Look at the first 3 faction, how much splash you find there? What there is/was has either been significantly penalized (nuwa, tyrant, splatter, athena, fury) flat out removed (mercury ifv) nerfed (foxtrot, prism tank), limited to 1 unit (cent, irkalla, kov, siegfired) or required actual micro (vulture, fury, foxtrot) and the list goes on. Foehn... nope none of that. This game, this mod is not designed for splash, its not healthy for it, at yet foehn is overflowing with it. 

 

WoC

-undo ptera speed/health nerfs, undo even buff the damage, remove the AoE

-road runner loses its splash, or its damage. MO does not need death balls. or have it lose its iron curtain after stunning its self. I hat this unit more than the ptera. 

-knightframe loses splash

-harbinger gets turned into anti unit support power with far less health. that or its splash get turned down.

-zorb loses its splash

-kingframes splash tuned down

 More to come. Im doing a full post on this when i have time.

 

what

 

This entire post is "I hate WoC: lets nerf literally everything so they dont work anymore"

Edited by JackoDerp, 25 January 2018 - 01:52 PM.

[CLAlstar]

Nice list of "counters" that might work assuming you AA was immobile when the pteras attack (b/c splash)...

It's what works. Not what >might< work.

 

 

on top of the fact that pteras never come alone.

They usually do because of speed. Only thing that can catch up is Buzzard and maybe Roadrunner, if we dont put any terrain limitations into this.

 

 

Roadrunner to kill AA (splash),

Nerfs are happening, m'dude. Without control RRers are only useful to disable the stuff on the front. Also it doesnt work vs all factions (Hail Psicorps and China, also PF and EA)

 

 

skystations to knock out gehennas like handepsilon said (plus anti infantry splash!),

They are too slow to be used as frontline unit, too squishy to be used as frontline unit and tornado can do more harm than good (yes, it damages even your air units!)

 

 

new buffed eureka to kill more AA (so much splash)

Eureka is and will remain the least used hero. Damage buff wont do much.

 

 

quetzal and new buffed tarchia to kill stationary(arty w splash),

I really question your usage of Quetzals then. Tarchias are more problematic because of how long it takes them to aim.

 

 

zorbs, kingframes, buzzards, knightframes, (all of which have splash) take your pick to kill infantry

You dont always rely on infantry as your AA source. Not to mention there are a lot of things that can efficiently repel foehn infantry.

 

 

and if all else fails, use one of 2 super weapons!

Which can be disabled. Or delayed. Or taken out. If you have brain, that is.

 

 

(get the theme here? give you a hint: splash)

We get, it, you're a Magikarp.

 

 

Look at the first 3 faction, how much splash you find there? What there is/was has either been significantly penalized

A lot. I dont feel like making a list. However, you seem to be forgetting that most of the AoE for other factions come from support units. EMP of Yunru. Malver deploy. Dustdevil bombs. Hummingbirds. Dybbuk Evovlers. Magnetrons. List goes on and on. And if you make the "but it doesnt deal damage/deals low damage" claim im going to change nickname, get into your game when you dont expect and stab you with all kind of non foehn AoEs. And units you mentioned? Nuwa penalized? Athenas? Borillo/Armadillo/Pyro? Blizzard tanks? Dune raiders?

Also, quick question. Which faction are you maining?

 

 

-road runner loses its splash, or its damage. MO does not need death balls. or have it lose its iron curtain after stunning its self. I hat this unit more than the ptera.

It already loses the curtain after first explosion. They also get nerfs. What do you even want more.

 

 

-knightframe loses splash

Which turns them into weaker SEALs without swimming ability and size 2. Splash was already nerfed, and so was range.

 

 

-harbinger gets turned into anti unit support power with far less health. that or its splash get turned down.

I'm pretty sure i saw harbinger more often dying than doing at least half of his runs unless the enemy plasy as a vegetable.

 

 

-zorb loses its splash

Floaters stopped being a threat after we got the rework of selfheal mechanic

 

 

-kingframes splash tuned down

Read the changelog?

[TeslaCruiser]

I'm starting to think something-something
Maybe we disagree so much about balance because we are playing with different groups of people. Closed groups to some extent.

 

Also, i think @Death_Kitty has a good point about the overabundance of AoE weapons in WoC.

From all Foehn, LB is the one I find more balanced. I must confess it is also my favorite Foehn SF but still, you have to be very careful about positioning and movements since it will take you a lot of time. This whole idea doesn't work so well in linear narrow maps tho.
When it comes to WoC the flying fleet is extremely mobile, I think they should rely more on ground units to engage enemy armies beyond harassment. They kinda work this way but beyond certain numbers, the situation changes.

Now, I know you need a lot of resources, wf's and time to build a +$50K blob but the thing is... it is not so hard to do in team games. Just like Allies can spam jets in team games.

[CLAlstar]

Game is never balanced in team games. I thought its a common knowledge.

 

Its just people preference that they want to play in bigger games and that 1v1 is nearly dead. Which is sad, because i like duels.

Edited by CLAlstar, 25 January 2018 - 03:55 PM.