376 replies to this topic

[TeslaCruiser]

I consider the non-foehn factions fairly balanced in team games.
Maybe a hard task but why shouldn't it be a goal? There is no excluding relation between 1v1 balance and team game balance. At least necessarily.

Edited by TeslaCruiser, 25 January 2018 - 04:12 PM.

[CLAlstar]

Starcraft having 3 factions have problems with balance. MO have 12 of them. In team games there are things that can be extremely powerful while they can be dealt with during duels. Lets Take China vs any Allies. You have EMP, that you can remove using Backwrap. However what if we have team game with 3 chinas on one side and one any allied on another? You can remove the first EMP, but what about second? At that point third is just asecuration, because with second EMP most of your forces are already dead. Some of combinations of forces can make team games even more powerful. What about Adept Tortoise? Iron Curtained Abrams Tanks? Enraged Foehn Infantry? Magnetrons with long range high damage AoE weapons? Pteranodons (dear god) under effect of Black Widow?

 

There will be always be a combination in team game that can easily win a game. And another one. And another one. Balance in team games is just an illusion.

[TeslaCruiser]

I agree to some extent. The more players in the game the more balance problems it will create, that is for sure. But isn't the same power present for the other team?
Balance in 4v4 games is probably a dead cause, 4v4 is always just for fun and probably beyond game technical capacity anyways.
I would take 3v3 into consideration when it comes to balance but I would definitely try to deliver a balanced 2v2... honestly, the game isn't so far away from this.

[Battle Bee]

Anything beyond 2v2 is likely gonna be 6 or more buddies enjoying a clusterfuck together. I don't think balance matters much at that point.

[CLAlstar]

But isn't the same power present for the other team?

The fact that enemy can pull out something OP and special just like the other team doesnt mean that its balanced. In the end its about who can abuse their OP combinations better. Or who fires all 3 superweapons into enemy base to make it 2v3.

[Death_Kitty]

 

what

 

This entire post is "I hate WoC: lets nerf literally everything so they dont work anymore"

 

 

No. 1 thing i should clarify is that all my feed back there does not take the changelog into account. Was kinda short on time... Most of the nerfs I want are already in the log. 

Now if buffing the pteranadons health, speed, and maybe damage and removing AoE, and giving some visual feedback as to where the harbinger will hit is "I hate WoC: lets nerf literally everything so they dont work anymore"... I don't know what to tell you.

Those are literally the only 2 WoC changes I'm actively campaigning for. Should have made that clearer, yeah that's my bad. sorry.

But that's it.

And so far no one has give 1 iota of information as to how that would be detrimental from the current status quo, other than it being a deviation from said status quo. I want to buff the thing in exchange for the nerf for crying out loud! Its pretty obvious that balance is dancing around this It has nerfed everything except for the actual issue: the aoe.

 

@alstar, gonna bullet point my responses to you, (sorry really bad with quotes).

 

Lets get a couple things out of the way first: 

1.) I main LC, SC, USA.

2.) you are a better MO player than me. By far. Like were not even close. I struggle to find players that i can play with without ping in the 100's, And I can never play with any of you it would seem b/c of passwords/time-zones.  so this: "Which can be disabled. Or delayed. Or taken out. If you have brain, that is." - hurts. If coronia decides to turtle, my ability to consistently maintain map control and counter harass is difficult, and harbinger usually comes anyway. I can get the AA to kill it, but it keeps me pent up in my base, and I end up losing map control, and by extension the game. Been playing RTS all my life, and I willing to put the time in to learn this one. I've put up threads asking for help, and if memory recalls the only responses you've given have had the depth of a dinner plate.

3.) when i said "quetzal and new buffed tarchia to kill stationary" stationary refereed to AA turrets, which i think an intended use of these units, no? My bad for not making that clearer. 

 

Now:

When I brought up aoe, what i meant to say is support aoe is fine. Hummingbird, EMP, Toxin clouds, stuns, all of that Im ok with. It gives interesting flavor to what otherwise would be mindless army spam. It gives depth. It required other units that can attack. When you look at AoE outside of foehn that is used in attack though, its clear its limited; what do i mean by that? Nuwa is slow, can't turn quickly, aircraft need special buildings just to have a few of them up at a time, some aoe is bound to abilities with cool-downs, others are limited to units like heroes with a units cap of 1, athena has to charge before it fires, tyrant does low armor damage and has low armor. the pteranodon breaks that. 

 

Its not difficult to time you attacks so you army hits the enemy at the same time. Control group pteras separately from the rest of the fleet, send them in first so that the fleet catches up with them right before they hit AA range. Same with ground units. Been doing it in sc2 for years.

 

Infantry is something you are forced to rely on b/c if you f***ed up, you have no more vehicles... or if you made any mistake what so ever preventing you from reaching AA critical mass. Or at least I am.

 

Now the pteranodons splash is something that consistently makes life miserable whenever coronia comes up, and I know I'm not the only one. The fact that this units has been nerfed so many time in every aspect except the AoE leads me to think that's the problem. And hey, if it would turn out the ptera is useless without the aoe, ill be the first in line pushing to give it back.

[TeslaCruiser]

It is not OP if, in both teams, players can combine powers to do something comparable. If from a larger point of view, those contributions are in a similar power level.
Now, who wins? the more capable team
If for you these interactions are 'abuse' then I understand why you think there is no balance.
 

[StolenTech]

I'm going to throw these ideas here.

ALLIES : 
1-A slight power plant upgrade buff (perhaps by 10 or 15 power points), this change may seem random but honestly it is really annoying as an allied player to make a power plant for each building you make, additionally if you add 1 or 2 base defenses you have to make even more powerplants just for them. However if that change is implemented I would love if some of the lategame buildings get an increase in power usage as well such as Ore Purifier(+20), Warpshop(+30), Gap generators(+30) and Weather Control Device(+50) just so allied players do not abuse this buff and just skyrocket their tech rushing tactics.

2-Gap generators should have a limit of 2 just like the Iron Guard. it is one of the most annoying things to fight an allied players who have gap generators all over their bases and their allies' bases.

3-The firepower nerf to GI IFVs, literally everyone agrees at this point that this thing is broken, it just dominates the early game so much and the fact it deals more damage to tanks than some MBTs is rather worrying.

4-Rocketeer RoF buff, just a slight buff to their RoF so maybe they can shoot and scoot out of harms-way better.

5-USA balancing : I am known at this point for the guy that hates USA with passion, not because  "OMG IT'S TOO OP PLIZ NURF" but just because it is braindead stupid how you play them at the moment, you make.... NOTHING but abrams tanks when you hit T3 unless your enemy has air then you make a couple of Aeroblazes because those ARE overpowered, all the while also having Riot troopers who just add insult to injury to factions that depend on infantry units.

here are why I think they are both overpowered and dirty to play: 
Abrams tanks: as already explained, it's already a meme in the discord community that you do nothing as USA but queue 50 of those things, they possess such armor, speed, firepower and RoF and that's not even touching the combos you can pull of with allied support powers. Imo they need an armor and effectiveness vs infantry nerfs (their lasers) the armor nerf is to make allied players use them more cautiously instead of just rolling over anything and everything that isn't either a china army or an LB army with a single click.

AeroBlazes: similar problems with the Abrams, this thing literally has no flaws because while most other AA is perhaps slow, needs to be stationary to deal damage or can be avoided due to it's lack of burst damage or having to be massed in numbers to be effective. THIS THING for whatever reason has none of these, it is cheap,fast as fuck (can catch up to vultures and invaders if you're wondering) can shoot on the move and has insane damage with slight AoE (but air units stacking is common so you bet this AoE will more likely that not kill air units) I'm not even sure what would I suggest to nerf about it ? because in what category of AA is it supposed to be in ? the slow and hard hitting or fast but needs to be in numbers to be meaningful ?

The Mercury support power: it's almost instant after activation and players usually time it right with the target paint to kill a huge chunk of an infantry blob, or even lightly armored tanks. imo it should get its' radius reduced by 40% so it's not that huge of a killing machine at T2. (however Athena cannons can keep their current radius because at least you can see those coming)

Riot troopers: ever since 3.3.0 people have complained about those guys, and instead of nerfs they just keep getting buffs instead for whatever reason ? I know the range buff is for garrisons but lets be real here... everyone makes a fuckton of them to the point where this is irrelevant because once the troops step into the garrison's range the garrison is the one that dies (or gets flushed) rather than the riots. and if you're going to buff them just for that reason why not compensate for it with other nerfs ? 

imo they should get RoF reduced by 15% and health by 30 hitpoints. and and I'm not sure if that's even enough.

6-The hummingbird: this thing is really a game changer, or more so people call it :"THE GAME BREAKER". I won't lie the idea is cool and it certainly fits allies, but the slow on this thing is so high that units just refuse to respond to orders (unless they are scorpion cell units or something of similar speed) imo the slow should be taken down from 50% to 25% and the AoE reduced by one third of the current spread.

SOVIETS :
We've seen very good changes to soviets in the past patch and changes coming in this one as well, most complaints about them are being adressed (mainly Vulture,Fury Drones and flak YES) but there are a few I'd like to also state.

Mortar Quads: why are those things susceptible to EMP when speeder trikes aren't ? why ? it is literally the main reason it doesn't get used vs the faction it would probably shine against.
other than that real changes I would suggest are : 25+ buff to hitpoints, since they feel so weak compared to other "infantry" units that have special plating, and perhaps projectile speed if possible ? this would really help them getting used more, and see more use out of Motor Ambush as well. 

Flame Turret: the most laugh-able joke of a support power.
there is no real use for it other than to poke buildings that got heavily damages from an attack in hopes that you can finish them off even though you are more than certain it won't (unless your opponent is noddy )

Imo an interesting feature to make it hopefully see more use is to give it an aura that buffs flame-based units by 20% around the turret(Pyros, Borillos/Armadillos and Buratinos) in conjunction with the buffs it is currently receiving. 

Armadillos: those things are monstrous building killers, once they get in a base there is no stopping them from leveling it in seconds other than walls (but those can be easily removed with wall buster and the building hiding behind will most likely die before you get to rebuild the wall back, and I'm taking about their flames and armor not even mentioning the passenger capacity which allows for a lot of fun and pain at the same time.

Imo they should get a RoF nerf a big one I'm not fimiliar with RoF values so I can't gauge how much would be needed, but one that would still make their firepower scary and more intimidating than borillos but not so destructive to the point it currently levels bases.

Yunru: Her EMP Timer is just so damn high, and for whatever reason sometimes units just bug and stay EMP'd for a whole minute even though Yunru doesn't target them at all. Imo either her RoF should be nerfed by 10% or EMP duration should be reduced by 2 seconds.

Epsilon:
NOTHING 

 

I'm actually surprised... but when I looked at it thoroughly I had nothing come to my mind that is broken, Mind Control will always be bullshit but the game offers more than enough methods to counter that.

Foehn:

I already stated this a few posts back, but I'll say it again : I really hate how bloated they are, it's fine if you want to have all the units you want for them Foehn units are cool but each of them should be allowed to show their value and not overlap in such a way that they are becoming redundant, it pains me when an inadequate player just wins because he makes nothing but megalodons or spams nothing but petranodons and road runners, while an actually good foehn player is unappreciated because he is shoved in with the rest of the foehn abusers.

Knightframes: should have their effectiveness vs light armored units halved, I know it seems like a random suggestion but if a foehn player expects to mass KFs earlygame and push for the win should be punished by T1 light vehicles, and ofc lancers kill most T1 tanks in 2 or 3 slices so this change wouldn't do any harm in the long run.

Jackals: now I don't know if this is even possible or not, but their damage alone vs buildings is weirdly high, I heard that it's how the weapon works that causes them to have such, would it be possible to nerf that somehow ? or give them a special weapon vs buildings that doesn't use the same mechanic ?

Road Runners: the incoming Nerfs are fine, but I feel like the health one isn't considering people use them with minermites as well, imo they should get 25 or even 50 more HPs taken away.

Megalodons: I won't go to megaarena part or how they are unkillable, but would it be possible to nerf their damage vs buildings ? I heard it has a similar issue to Jackals in that regard but they are utterly broken when they go after buildings and I hate it, considering all the ways haihead already has to destroy buildings.

Petranodons: FUCK THOSE ASSHOLES, I hate Coronia with passion. more often than not when an argument in the voicechat happens is because someone used those fuckers and the other player was helpless (unless they were USA) and the other faction that can fight them back is scorpion cell but with GIGANTIC Losses because even the tip of the Petranodon's AoE is enough to kill oxidizers.

They need an HP nerf by 150, and as most people pointed out an AoE nerf, they are the utter bullshit of coronia right after the other superweapon they have.

The Harbinger: fuck this thing, no matter how people complain you don't seem to intend to nerf it do you ? it's health is massive and much like the petranodons will take you more than the entire thing (tower+ plane cost) combined to take it down, and not before it kills the building the player targets and will kill.

if so... fine.but at least nerf the amount of loops it keeps going back and forth because it feels like it is infinite. it never stops and just keeps on coming and keeps on coming.

Giants/GodsBanes: this is a recent one that came to my attention, but it is one of the most serious problems I've faced and probably one of the more serious points in the entire post.

these guys are unkillable because no matter how much you try they will just refuse to die unless you have hailstorms (which I forgot to talk about but fuck it) or shadrays (one of those moments that these guys REALLY steal the show  ).

and then even when you FINALLY are near to killing them the LB player just click a button and denies all of your effort for 1k, even Morales needs 4 shots to kill ONE of them (I think it should be at least 2 shots like Volkov).

The only way to kill them is to use iron curtained terror drones which then if YOU use those you'tr suddenly the biggest asshole on earth (I'll be real you can't avoid salt in video games but when there is literally 1 way in the entire game to kill them, which is exclusive to 1 faction you know something is wrong).

I really hope to see an HP nerf to them, perhaps make some Anti-Inf weapons a little more effective against them like Viruses, snipers, Morales, Athena cannons and so on.

Edited by StolenTech, 25 January 2018 - 06:48 PM.

[XoGamer]

yea, none of the changes look wrong to me

 

just buff foxtrot damage against generic armies as suggested before, or AOE

 

and nerf pterandons

[Death_Kitty]

see? not the only one who hates pteras with a passion although stolen tech... you are far more... passionate... on the subject than i am.

 

BTW CLAstar Im not a magicarp... Im a motherf***ing gyrados!

[CLAlstar]

1.) I main LC, SC, USA.

I can see clealry why do you hate WoC now. Latins have it worst when it comes to dealing with mass air. Scorpon Cell to bit smaller extent and then we have USA, which can deal it with it on rather same level as SC.

 

 

2.) you are a better MO player than me. By far. Like were not even close. I struggle to find players that i can play with without ping in the 100's, And I can never play with any of you it would seem b/c of passwords/time-zones.  so this: "Which can be disabled. Or delayed. Or taken out. If you have brain, that is." - hurts. If coronia decides to turtle, my ability to consistently maintain map control and counter harass is difficult, and harbinger usually comes anyway. I can get the AA to kill it, but it keeps me pent up in my base, and I end up losing map control, and by extension the game. Been playing RTS all my life, and I willing to put the time in to learn this one. I've put up threads asking for help, and if memory recalls the only responses you've given have had the depth of a dinner plate.

I wrote this because i saw many people having no idea how to deal with superweapons. Many Allied players forget for example about barracudas, and even if they make them the execution is fatal, because they fly straight through no air zone. In many games i saw people not ebing able to snipe them in some ways and in equally many games i got mine SW sniped because someone knew from what angle he should attack.

 

 

3.) when i said "quetzal and new buffed tarchia to kill stationary" stationary refereed to AA turrets, which i think an intended use of these units, no? My bad for not making that clearer.

 

Okay, forgiven. I saw players trying to use them vs tanks tho. With fatal results.

 

Regarding the entire Pteranodon thing, i dont think i have ever ended up in game where mass pteranodon was present. When i tried to do this, i was quickly shut down. *glares at BlackSnow for that one certain Coronia vs USA game* Does it happen to you usually in duels or in larger games? In larger games players usually have more breathing space because its so easy to defend yourself and allies. Another thing on the list of "OP in teamgames"

 

 

Its not difficult to time you attacks so you army hits the enemy at the same time. Control group pteras separately from the rest of the fleet, send them in first so that the fleet catches up with them right before they hit AA range. Same with ground units. Been doing it in sc2 for years.

So basicly advanced a-move. Which can be mitigated in certain ways. Support powers play huge factor there. Coronia support powers are not really that supportive beside the Quetzal Shield, which affects one unit.Try experimenting a bit while protecting your core AA.

 

 

Infantry is something you are forced to rely on b/c if you f***ed up, you have no more vehicles... or if you made any mistake what so ever preventing you from reaching AA critical mass. Or at least I am.

You are forced to make infantry because it is actually viable, unlike vanilla RA2/YR.

[Death_Kitty]

Yeah. I'm ok with making infantry (that's one reason i i vastly prefer this mod to vanilla YR) but pteras are the bane of my life. And foehn is very good at killing infantry, WoC especially.
but couple of issues with your post alstar:
1.) so few people to experiment with when you peak time is 2 am everywhere else. 

2.)i can use barracudas. My friends will only play MO with me if agree not to use them. cheeky tech snipes are the name of the game.

 

1v1's. Usually I lose an early engagement, b/.c i never got the playtime to counter foehn well, get steadily forced off the map, horde AA in my base to delay the inevitable. If I try and move out before hand, especially with SC and LC pteras come and annihilate me, usually with a harbinger in my base at the same time, forcing GG.

[CLAlstar]

You need better friends. If they ban you because of using anti structure flier with it intended purpose, then im questioning their mindsets.

 

Early game vs Foehn may seem hard but its also the moment where they are most vulnerable. GI IFV excel at that part, as they can rather easily deal with most of infantry. Sniping minermites and forceing them to build forces/defenses in early greatly anchors them into lower tiers. Dont be scared to open engagements, use the range to your advantage. In SC case its Gattling/Mantis runbys. Latins have it worse as i said - but some sneaky terror drones with jaguars or even masses of conscrips (this is not a joke) supported by some tanks can deal efficiently with infantry, while tanks do the job.

 

Unless you play on super huge maps then you are rather screwed unless you get early set of jets and keep on sniping minermites one by one.

[TeslaCruiser]

Can we take a moment to appreciate how good Alankqa's AA firepower is? they can kill Irkalla 2v1 sooo fast. Why this needs a Buff? because people can't use slow units? How about learning to use teraton against faster threats? and waiting for your Alanqas before engaging? AND the unit isn't even that slow to begin with, speed 12 is a decent speed.

[CLAlstar]

It's speed 12 (flying). That makes a lot of difference. 12 speed for hover/normal/flying movement types do not mean they all move at same speed. For a flying unit its rather slow. Rocketeer being speed 10 is faster than Alanqa.

 

Speeder himself was surprised at people complaining about alanqa being unreliable. I agree with him on that too.

 

Also Teratorns are slightly unreliable in terms of vs faster units because of how the laserlock works.

[TeslaCruiser]

Ye but knightframe can fix that last thing

[NorthFireZ]

If Gap Gens will be limited to two, then Chimera Core and Signal Inhibitor should receive the same treatment. 

[TeslaCruiser]

That would be sooo good

[Destroyencio]

I would like if Chimera Cores were nerfed.

 

I recall in 3.0 the units hidden in there had some kind of delay before firing, but for some reason after 3.3 they don't have this anymore. I would like if that came back, or something was done with the Chimeras cause it's really hard to attack when you have no ways to reveal stealth at long distance.

 

Stealth detection should also be improved for Allies and a bit in general since the units are either weak (Robot Tanks) or vulnerable to mind control (Borillos).

[JackoDerp]

I can agree that Robot Tanks/Stingers need better detection range

their current range is arse