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#21 OfficialLolicon

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Posted 05 November 2018 - 02:07 PM

As for the Magnetron: it's a support + siege unit, it's not going to have bigger range because it will make its support power overtuned. It's not a dedicated anti-structure unit, so there is really no point in touching it. And its armor is the same as most of the siege units. Plus, repair units exist, you can tank out the damage of T3 defenses, which deal relatively low damage to Magnetrons to say.


If the sieging mechanics of a Magnetron is secondary, it still at least needs even a minimal buff against defenses. It's basically the only effective Anti-structure unit PsiCorps have. Libra does deal decent damage against large structures, but she deals low damage against defenses. While using stingers w/ engies are indeed great, it would still cost you, because you won't just obviously build one each (IME, the minimal was 4 to ensure non of my magnetrons was destroyed).
In PvP, the enemy won't just let you destroy their defenses. It's no doubt they'll retaliate and will try to attack your forces with what they have. That's what the extra stingers are too. While you can say "Why not mind-control the enemies' forces to destroy that defense?" It won't be that easy as you would probably use mind-controlled units to hold your ground rather than forcing them to attack a defense, unless it's a siege unit too. Let's be real tho, no idiot will put a siege unit near a mastermind/elite unless it's intentional.

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#22 CLAlstar

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Posted 05 November 2018 - 10:08 PM

There is something you may not realize. Unlike some of siege units, the damage is instant. Regarding the "but" about repair stingers, i thought its common to have at least 4 in any game and replace them if necessary.

 

Also, other siege units exist beside Magnetrons. Basilisks and Dune Riders to be exact. And next person to say "but they arent psicorps exclusive thus they dont count" will be gifted a demo truck deployed right next to his house.

 

 

PS. Divine, next time think twice before you write something like "change my mind". Didnt expect my response?


Edited by CLAlstar, 05 November 2018 - 10:12 PM.


#23 Divine

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Posted 05 November 2018 - 10:37 PM

There is something you may not realize. Unlike some of siege units, the damage is instant. Regarding the "but" about repair stingers, i thought its common to have at least 4 in any game and replace them if necessary.

 

Also, other siege units exist beside Magnetrons. Basilisks and Dune Riders to be exact. And next person to say "but they arent psicorps exclusive thus they dont count" will be gifted a demo truck deployed right next to his house.

 

 

PS. Divine, next time think twice before you write something like "change my mind". Didnt expect my response?

I wouldn't be writing such a thing if I didn't expect a response. Petya's original arguement was that "PsiCorps has plenty of offensive options", so I guess we can include non-unique units as well, but then we should look at all factions the same way. In the end, unique units will be the tie breakers. I guess Petya should clarify if his original arguement was ment to be interpreted subjectively, as in comparison to other factions, or just as pointing out that plenty of offensive units exist. You can't send a demo truck btw, everyone knows you are a SC main. I will live the rest of my days in fear of Bloatick ambushes, tho.



#24 NorthFireZ

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Posted 06 November 2018 - 01:21 AM

Let's just ignore the fact that Psicorp is probably one of the most flexible factions which an inherent hard Crowd Control and great naval presence even without a naval yard. 

 

I will agree that Psicorp lacks direct fire, which you deemed as one of the primary factors that make a faction offensive. However trading direct fire options in T3 there comes so much more tactical opportunities with Magnetrons, Masterminds, and Magnetic Satelite. 

 

Looking at it though, I don't think Psicorp is designed to be... well anything but offense. Lashers are a great example for they encourage hit and runs meaning you always want to be attacking weak spots with them rather than escorting the frontline. Marauders also have the impression of direct fire unit harass taking up the role of tank hunter in a M10 Wolverine-ish kind of way. (For those who don't know the M10 Wolverine was thinly armored but with a good gun. It was designed to outmaneuver enemy Panzers and hit them hard) 

 

Even Libra has a deploy function that encourages walking into enemy armor columns or miner lines aka, close quarters and aggressive! 

 

When talking about fragile magnetron or fragile marauder let me remind everyone that they have had an armor change from light to medium already. The Magnetron is already tankier than some of the siege options out there in addition to its MASSIVE UTILITY POTENTIAL. So idk I guess trading a bit of structural damage with the ability to halt entire armies is not a good trade in your eyes. 


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#25 Drezalnor

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Posted 06 November 2018 - 08:04 AM

I thought about a potential replacement for the Magnetron-and here it is.
Spoiler

Edited by Drezalnor, 06 November 2018 - 05:11 PM.

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#26 JackoDerp

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Posted 06 November 2018 - 12:32 PM

I currently find PsiCorps too Mind-Control focused. It relies far too much on just throwing Masterminds at stuff and waiting for the enemy to die.
The alternative to this blanket strategy is obviously the Magnetron, since its combined Sieging and Utility abilities are quite unique and powerful already.

In their current state, PsiCorps have an enormous lack of internal balance between Mind Control and Direct anti-armour damage. I appreciate that is the intended faction quirk but the result of this is some really wack matchups, where factions that can't deal with their Masterminds (USA, Latin) have an absolute goddamn nightmare, while factions that can just ignore the problem (Russia, China) almost have a cakewalk over PsiCorps at times.
And I'd like to see this problem narrowed slightly. Improving certain aspects of their Magnetising enemies and picking them off while nerfing Masterminds is the best course of action imo. It brings them into a fairer game against other factions without removing their uniqueness.

When engaging units, Magnetron is perfectly good at its job, it stops stuff from moving, and needs some micro to be used most effectively, this is fine. I think its the actual damage options that need slight improvements, as outright mobbing things is an extremely risky tactic.
As for siege, it gets kinda awkward imo. PsiCorps I think *do* have a problem in terms of siege, but the problem more lies with the supplements to their siege rather than the Mangetrons themselves, as their utility is more than worth it in the tradeoff.
Though they are annoyingly slow to get into position to actually attack defenses.

Also, other siege units exist beside Magnetrons. Basilisks and Dune Riders to be exact.


And frankly at the moment Duneriders are appalling siege units. Sure they do reasonable damage to buildings in numbers, but thats against their extreme fragility and rather high price to spam (even with vats, tbh)
And lategame anti-infantry options (Heroes or not) tend to level them instantly. You are way better off to just swarm the enemy with Brutes supported by Magnetrons and use that as your siege.

Basilisks can work, but they're quite easy to deny and quite expensive to make, so im 50/50 on them. They work extremely well for sneak attacks but not so much for the frontline.

Everyone seems to be arguing over how Yunru came into such a position of power,

yet nobody is willing to explain how Rahn's weapon is able to teleport a pair of shorts.

 

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#27 Divine

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Posted 06 November 2018 - 12:44 PM

I currently find PsiCorps too Mind-Control focused. It relies far too much on just throwing Masterminds at stuff and waiting for the enemy to die.
The alternative to this blanket strategy is obviously the Magnetron, since its combined Sieging and Utility abilities are quite unique and powerful already.

In their current state, PsiCorps have an enormous lack of internal balance between Mind Control and Direct anti-armour damage. I appreciate that is the intended faction quirk but the result of this is some really wack matchups, where factions that can't deal with their Masterminds (USA, Latin) have an absolute goddamn nightmare, while factions that can just ignore the problem (Russia, China) almost have a cakewalk over PsiCorps at times.
And I'd like to see this problem narrowed slightly. Improving certain aspects of their Magnetising enemies and picking them off while nerfing Masterminds is the best course of action imo. It brings them into a fairer game against other factions without removing their uniqueness.

Thank you that's precisely the point I was trying to make ever since the OP. But the way I see the solution is different, I don't think simply tweaking the stats of existing stuff will ever fix this issue. I think this is rooted in the fact that PsiCorps is the faction closest to vanilla YR's Yuri army. What I propose would be adding a few new unique units, and more importantly, new technologies, and of course repurposing or scrapping some existing ones. Thinking of the number of unique units each faction has, I came to the realization that Epsilon as a whole maybe could use some more variety, although HQ is rather well-rounded as it is, and SC... well, IDK TBH.


Edited by Divine, 06 November 2018 - 12:44 PM.


#28 Drezalnor

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Posted 06 November 2018 - 12:52 PM

I currently find PsiCorps too Mind-Control focused. It relies far too much on just throwing Masterminds at stuff and waiting for the enemy to die.The alternative to this blanket strategy is obviously the Magnetron, since its combined Sieging and Utility abilities are quite unique and powerful already.In their current state, PsiCorps have an enormous lack of internal balance between Mind Control and Direct anti-armour damage. I appreciate that is the intended faction quirk but the result of this is some really wack matchups, where factions that can't deal with their Masterminds (USA, Latin) have an absolute goddamn nightmare, while factions that can just ignore the problem (Russia, China) almost have a cakewalk over PsiCorps at times.And I'd like to see this problem narrowed slightly. Improving certain aspects of their Magnetising enemies and picking them off while nerfing Masterminds is the best course of action imo. It brings them into a fairer game against other factions without removing their uniqueness.When engaging units, Magnetron is perfectly good at its job, it stops stuff from moving, and needs some micro to be used most effectively, this is fine. I think its the actual damage options that need slight improvements, as outright mobbing things is an extremely risky tactic.As for siege, it gets kinda awkward imo. PsiCorps I think *do* have a problem in terms of siege, but the problem more lies with the supplements to their siege rather than the Mangetrons themselves, as their utility is more than worth it in the tradeoff.Though they are annoyingly slow to get into position to actually attack defenses.

Also, other siege units exist beside Magnetrons. Basilisks and Dune Riders to be exact.

And frankly at the moment Duneriders are appalling siege units. Sure they do reasonable damage to buildings in numbers, but thats against their extreme fragility and rather high price to spam (even with vats, tbh)And lategame anti-infantry options (Heroes or not) tend to level them instantly. You are way better off to just swarm the enemy with Brutes supported by Magnetrons and use that as your siege.Basilisks can work, but they're quite easy to deny and quite expensive to make, so im 50/50 on them. They work extremely well for sneak attacks but not so much for the frontline.
I concur with quite some of your opinions,Jacko.But PsiCorps doesn't need to be so heavily MC dependent as it is now.It could make forays into actual psychic warfare as Divine,Tathmesh and I said earlier,by developing real psychic weapons.Weapons that could do more anti-armor damage than at present.While factions like USA and LC have big trouble with their MC,others like WoC and LB can crush them underfoot.PsiCorps doesn't necessarily need to magnetize enemies-slowing them down heavily for a while also does the trick.But that would demand buffs to their anti-armor damage,to shed off part of their glass-cannon vibe.

Alstar possibly lost his cool when he wrote that,Jacko.He forgot for a moment that Duneriders aren't siege units,they are hit'n run guys.Basilisks on the other hand seem worthy only after a range buff(they can't outrange any AA defense).
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#29 JackoDerp

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Posted 06 November 2018 - 12:59 PM

Duneriders are the Epsilon counterpart to Siege Cadre, they are actually siege units but for lower tier defenses (and they do a pretty poor job of those too)

Everyone seems to be arguing over how Yunru came into such a position of power,

yet nobody is willing to explain how Rahn's weapon is able to teleport a pair of shorts.

 

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#30 Drezalnor

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Posted 06 November 2018 - 01:07 PM

Duneriders are the Epsilon counterpart to Siege Cadre, they are actually siege units but for lower tier defenses (and they do a pretty poor job of those too)

Which deprives them of the right to call themselves that.

PS-Though I think Duneriders resemble Lancers more than Siege Cadres.

Edited by Drezalnor, 06 November 2018 - 01:18 PM.

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#31 Tathmesh

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Posted 06 November 2018 - 01:29 PM

What I propose would be adding a few new unique units, and more importantly, new technologies, and of course repurposing or scrapping some existing ones.

 

This is the point where I would disagree with you. 

 

This solution is entirely impractical. It would be a huge time investment. There's also no guarantee that the rework will be perfect, so it will probably come with its own set of balance problems. Basically, you will have exchanged one set of balance problems for a different set of balance problems. 

 

There are plenty of ways to tweak PsiCorps' numbers so that they're a stronger faction overall. We don't need to go for the nuclear option right away. 

 

If magnetron siege sucks, some potential solutions:

  • Increase their HP so they survive T3 defenses and get more damage out.
  • Increase their firepower against defenses specifically, or all structures in general, or structures but not defenses.
  • Increase their range so they can't be hit by defenses, but nerf their speed.

All of this can be achieved by changing numbers. 



#32 Divine

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Posted 06 November 2018 - 02:54 PM

This is the point where I would disagree with you. 
 
This solution is entirely impractical. It would be a huge time investment. There's also no guarantee that the rework will be perfect, so it will probably come with its own set of balance problems. Basically, you will have exchanged one set of balance problems for a different set of balance problems. 
 
There are plenty of ways to tweak PsiCorps' numbers so that they're a stronger faction overall. We don't need to go for the nuclear option right away. 
 
If magnetron siege sucks, some potential solutions:

  • Increase their HP so they survive T3 defenses and get more damage out.
  • Increase their firepower against defenses specifically, or all structures in general, or structures but not defenses.
  • Increase their range so they can't be hit by defenses, but nerf their speed.
All of this can be achieved by changing numbers.


Then people would complain about the Magnetron being retardedly OP, and they'd do so rightfully. The problem here isn't the Magnetron's medocrity as a siege unit by itself, because if we look at the unit as a whole, we can see that its utility use indeed makes up for it. The problem is that the Mastermind cannot attack buildings either. As a result, PsiCorps has probably the worst siege capability of the Epsilon subfactions.

#33 JackoDerp

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Posted 06 November 2018 - 04:35 PM

I actually believe if we need to change anything at all about PsiCorps siege its buffing the Speed of the Magnetrons so they are less sluggish to get into positions when attacking defenses and more flexible for the skilled player using it to control space.

That and make Duneriders usable.

Everyone seems to be arguing over how Yunru came into such a position of power,

yet nobody is willing to explain how Rahn's weapon is able to teleport a pair of shorts.

 

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#34 OfficialLolicon

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Posted 06 November 2018 - 04:38 PM

There is something you may not realize. Unlike some of siege units, the damage is instant. Regarding the "but" about repair stingers, i thought its common to have at least 4 in any game and replace them if necessary.

 

Also, other siege units exist beside Magnetrons. Basilisks and Dune Riders to be exact. And next person to say "but they arent psicorps exclusive thus they dont count" will be gifted a demo truck deployed right next to his house.

 

 

PS. Divine, next time think twice before you write something like "change my mind". Didnt expect my response?

I mostly build more than 4 stingers, and I fought a couple where they just build 2... So I thought 4 wasn't the least.

 

It's true the damage is instant, which allows it insta-destroy a building if build in massive amounts, but like I said, it's costly to get the effects of the instant really useable. You can say "that would also fall to the Prism Tanks then", I'll point out that they're attacks bounce to other targets, even if they're hitting infantry, so can they destoroy 2 or more objects at a time. I agree that Dune Riders and Basilisks also exist as siege, but like what Jacko said, Dune's are kinda poor at their jobs as a siege. Basilisks is an anti-infantry and siege yes, but they're easy to deny as well since they're pretty light armored (not wanting them to buff tho)

 

I primarily use Dunes as anti-infantry actually, since they're good at it. 


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#35 NorthFireZ

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Posted 06 November 2018 - 10:13 PM

Btw Magnetrons were buffed by survivability already and they are only slow because of their floating function. I say keep them slow because they are powerful utility and siege units and instead look to buff Dune Riders since they are... well quite shit overall. It'll really help EVERY Epsilon faction if Dune Riders were buffed in general. 


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#36 Initiate

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 01:45 AM

 

Then people would complain about the Magnetron being retardedly OP, and they'd do so rightfully. The problem here isn't the Magnetron's medocrity as a siege unit by itself, because if we look at the unit as a whole, we can see that its utility use indeed makes up for it. The problem is that the Mastermind cannot attack buildings either. As a result, PsiCorps has probably the worst siege capability of the Epsilon subfactions.

 

 

What if that was changed? Give the Masterminds a melee anti-structure (and only structure) attack similar to the Drakuv? Could give them a grinder or just reasonably say the tank is ramming the structure to bits, they're supposed to be huge -

https://vignette.wik...=20080525112446

Ramming would be amusing since it's the pretty much the Mastermind banging its head against a wall until the wall disappears. 

 

It'd give the PsiCorps more options instead of increasing its current over reliance on the Magnetron.



#37 Petya

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 01:46 AM

I wouldn't be writing such a thing if I didn't expect a response. Petya's original arguement was that "PsiCorps has plenty of offensive options", so I guess we can include non-unique units as well, but then we should look at all factions the same way. In the end, unique units will be the tie breakers. I guess Petya should clarify if his original arguement was ment to be interpreted subjectively, as in comparison to other factions, or just as pointing out that plenty of offensive units exist. You can't send a demo truck btw, everyone knows you are a SC main. I will live the rest of my days in fear of Bloatick ambushes, tho.

I'd gladly elaborate this thing further, however I think said everything which needed to be said. I'm just sutbtly dropping this here: I wonder how you eveer won as Epsilon without ever using Basilisk and relying on the sub-specific siege unit.



#38 Handepsilon

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 09:47 AM

 

I wonder how you eveer won as Epsilon without ever using Basilisk and relying on the sub-specific siege unit.

Frankly though? Basilisk isn't really that seen at all, even on vs AI game where the AI usually struggles with air. They're just too fragile and too expensive to invest on. They don't even outrange T1 AA from what I remember. Even if they do, they do so barely.


Edited by Handepsilon, 08 November 2018 - 09:47 AM.

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#39 Petya

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 01:59 PM

They don't outrange T1 anti-air and they are fragile so they aren't really overpowered, but they don't need to outrange anti-air at all, because they can destroy structures in the blink of the eye, and depower the base.

 

Basilisk isn't too expensive to invest on. It's not even near as niche as Kirov. Basilisk is relatively mobile, is a flying artillery and deals high damage to structures. With proper micromanagement it is the most decimating siege unit in the entire game, because it can remove an entire base in matter of seconds.



#40 Divine

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 02:12 PM

They don't outrange T1 anti-air and they are fragile so they aren't really overpowered, but they don't need to outrange anti-air at all, because they can destroy structures in the blink of the eye, and depower the base.

 

Basilisk isn't too expensive to invest on. It's not even near as niche as Kirov. Basilisk is relatively mobile, is a flying artillery and deals high damage to structures. With proper micromanagement it is the most decimating siege unit in the entire game, because it can remove an entire base in matter of seconds.

It's like a crappier Quetzal, one can use it to sneak around the map and strike at a base while the opponent isn't looking. So I kinda agree, but it very much depends on the enemy's skill if such a thing can be pulled off. 






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