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Just some thoughts about PsiCorps


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#41 Petya

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 02:16 PM

I always see professionals using them in their main army. I don't really like saying this, but sometimes you need to learn to play the game before jumping into balance related conclusions. :)



#42 Handepsilon

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 04:47 AM

Well, yeah they do destroy infantries large structures rather easily. Smaller ones like t1 structures... not so much because of how RA2 handle the AoE. They're kinda like kirov, gucci in the hands of AI, but sucks in the hands of players.

I guess they'd do fine if you can avoid defenses well, but they don't feel as good as you claim them to be. They're ironically more situational than magnetron if I have to be honest, despite them being able to do direct damages.

If there's one popular aerial building buster, it's usually Barracuda

Edited by Handepsilon, 09 November 2018 - 04:49 AM.

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#43 Petya

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 11:57 AM

The more I read back this conversation, the more I realise that this entire thread is full of contradictions and just don't make any sense. First complaint was that Magnetron 'sucks against T3 defenses', which is by the way an intended thing, and busting T3 defenses can be done with Basilisks. Then you start saying that Basilisk costs a lot. However it doesn't cost more than setting up all those defenses, because a T3 defense structure costs 1800 credits + the reactors required of maintaining them. A Basilisk costs significantly less, than the setting up of the defensive line and its maintenance.

 

 

I guess they'd do fine if you can avoid defenses well, but they don't feel as good as you claim them to be. They're ironically more situational than magnetron if I have to be honest, despite them being able to do direct damages.

If there's one popular aerial building buster, it's usually Barracuda

I highligthed the keywords. It's your feeling, not the generally established standpoint. It's a good thing that it is situational. Siege units are situational anyway, they were meant to be situational.

 

It is popular, because you can snipe key structures with Basilisks, but the overall destructive force of Basilisks is significantly lower than Basilisk's or Kirov's. Barracuda was meant for strategic strikes, Kirov and Basilisk are there to crush bases.

 

 

And balance isn't tuned according to "what is popular and what is not", because if we are being honest, Russia and soviets in general are noob-friendly sides, hence their popularity. Allies and Epsilon require more game knowledge and skills. So, stop saying that Epsilon is weak, because it isn't, the player behind the side is.



#44 Handepsilon

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 03:00 PM

Wha?

I'm not the one saying Epsilon is weak. Heck, I like playing as HQ. I also wasn't the one that said PsiCorps need overhaul etc. Are you confusing me with Divine due to our similar avatar?

I mean, ok. T3 defense busting is something Basilisk can do. The thing is they're way too fragile and even T1 anti air vehicles and defenses can deal with them as soon as they get spotted. Your investment is really better off elsewhere. I'd rather have the magnetrons tank the T3 defenses shot rather than using basilisks. Or better yet just use spooks or the likes to bait their shots.

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#45 Divine

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 04:35 PM

I think we are kinda getting off-topic. I started this thread as a musing that perhaps the entire concept of PsiCorps is bad to begin with. That while HQ and SC were built practically from scratch, PsiCorps is just a half-assed Yuri army with reworked magnetism.

 

I think we can all agree that the Magnetron is a great unit, perhaps a bit too great. One of the key goals of this mod was IIRC, to make not only factions but also units balanced, in a way that would prevent their faction from relying too much on a single one of them. While it is clear that this goal is not fulfilled in the case of the USA (Abrams) and LC (Catastrophe), I think this is the worst for PsiCorps. The kneejerk reaction would be to nerf the Magnetron and maybe it deserves some nerf, but that would completely break the entire faction due to the aforementioned dependance. I also noticed that of the four main factions, Epsilon has the fewest units, so there would be a room for expansion. 

 

I think what PsiCorps needs is a bunch of new technologies, and a new doctrine. Right now HQ is a powerhouse faction, which is good, SC is subversive, which is good, and PsiCorps is some bastard child with a balanced, slightly glasscannon-ish early tech, and late tech that is slow like powerhouse, costs like glass cannon, hits like subversive and in general is very frustrating both to play as and against. I think PsiCorps should become a glass cannon faction entirely with traces of some subversion, retaining its mobility in late game, but also the fragility. Hit hard, hit fast, die easily. I think this sentiment would also fit the faction better lore-wise.

 

I would start by diversifying the Epsilon bombers first. Evolver should go to HQ, Siezer should be nerfed and go to PsiCoprs, and a new chemical bomber should go to SC. SC's Toxin Strike ability should be replaced with something else to prevent redundancy.

Spoiler

 

I would continue by trashing the Mastermind -it would remain in the campaign to some degree but in-lore it shouldn't go beond prototype phase. I'd also keep it as a crate goodie. The Dybbuk Siezer would take over the late-game mind control ability, though as a fragile aircraft, it should be faster but also easier to kill than a Mastermind in a deathblob. I would nerf the Magnetron by taking away its ability to harm buildings completely, and instead adding a dedicated siege unit to PsiCorps, preferably one that also has some use as an anti-armor unit (see my "Juggernaut" unit idea). I'd also add a new Libra. The current one should remain in the campaign, or at least up to a point in Act 2. The new Libra should not be the queen of nade noobs but instead use telekinesis exclusively to ruin the day of her victims. Flip tanks from afar, tear down structures, tear apart infantry limb from limb, you know. A flying infantry in tier 2 for harrassment (see my "Seraphim" unit idea), a reworked or completely repalced Gehenna, and a tier 3 monster that is a regular fighting unit instead of some gimmicky crap.


Edited by Divine, 09 November 2018 - 04:51 PM.


#46 Polaris Starnor

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 12:48 AM

I don’t see how single unit spam is worse with Psicorps, it’s one of the factions that almost absolutely force you to use different units, USA and LC can both practically spam their respective monster tanks to victory, but psicorps is practically forced to using numerous varieties with magnetrons stalling for time masterminds causing chaos in the opposing army, Libra is the closest thing to a devastator in Psicorps’s arsenal and she’s a hero, and a fragile one at that.

Hit hard, hit fast, die easily, doesn’t cut it for my vision of a Psicorps doctrine, in contrary to your opinion, I believe that an absolute glass cannon makes less sense lore wise. Act 1 was almost all about covert ops during the war, using trickery to make their way through each mission, it makes more sense for them to use their abilities to turn tables against a larger task force rather than a glass cannon doctrine, especially with the few members psicorps would have in the early stages.

I feel like Epsilon jets could certainly be reworked,dybbuks are somewhat irrelevant.

The decoy drill seems a bit redundant, people would quickly learn to recognize what would probably be a decoy drill and ignore them, especially if it’s a minor explosion.

I can see the reason in adding dybbuk siezer to Psicorps arsenal, but the problem is that both options to mind control offensively can be torn apart with very little effort assuming mastermind is removed as you say, mastermind is meant to withstand the force of the front to have a mind controlling presence on the front, where elites and siezers can very easily get torn apart.

I can understand taking away magnetron’s siege ability but I feel as though it should have some effect (reducing production building speed, slowing fire rate for defensive structures),effectively making it a dedicated support unit

I believe juggernauts were supposed to be miniature resephs for land purposes, relatively bulky like stalkers (forgive me if I’m wrong)? Which immediately contradicts your suggested Psicorps doctrine of a glass cannon faction, although the concept may be more suitable for a bike not unlike the speeder trikes.

While Libra is incredibly powerful as a psychic I don’t believe she has that much direct control over her abilities, her darts are relatively light, easy to control, and powerful, she flips tanks over because of the pure psychic energy she emits naturally, but I don’t think her abilities would be so precise as to tear apart infantry by the limb, structures sure, enough force would level any building, due to the extent of her control she would just be able to throw infantry, fatal in it’s own way though. Although if her gravity field is a sign of anything, she isn’t able to send her telekinetic powers over long distances, which may be why she uses her darts in the first place.

Psicorps already has a T2 infantry in the form of the epsilon elites, and interesting as a seraphim may be, raining down fire upon unwitting targets is more suitable for T3, as I believe it has a hefty focus on just targeting land while being efficient.

Gehenna is gimmicky but not as bad as I think you believe it is

At the end of the day I think Psicorps needs balancing but isn’t quite as broken as you say it is, while some of these ideas are useable, most of them would break the campaign, a lot with contrasting Psicorps’s tactics throughout most of WWIII and also the MO war.

#47 Divine

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 01:50 AM

Well obviously PsiCorps doesn't spam Magnetron like USA spams Abrams or LC spams Catastrophes, what I meant was that all the faction's tactics seem to be centered around that single unit, the rest are just helping. I think it has too much emphasis, you see. I was also thinking about what you said about the new doctrine breaking the campaign but I think there would be just enough mind control and subversive things left for Act 1, while Act 2... I'm actually not sure about that. Most of the units I'd rework or remove would stay in the campaign in some way, Mastermind, and the current Gehenna, which for example would still try to block the way of the Paradox. I don't think you quite understood what I wanted with the Decoy Drill. The explosion is completely irrelevant, it's just the finale. The real effect of the support weapon is the drilling sound itself, which would be meant to confuse players. If they send units to intercept, those likely get wounded by the explosion. The durability of Juggernauts is obviously not set in stone, I imagined them though but not as though as Stalkers, but it can cange, considering that ATM it only exists as a concept. It would totally make sense lore-wise if Libra's control over her abilities improved over time. I wouldn't consider Elites to be truly unique. Though on the other hand I consider IFV variants to be so maybe I should re-evaluate. On the suggestions forums we also came up with an improved brute concept for HQ, so if we get something for SC as well there could be a full set of semi-unique infantry.
 
GEHENNA. IS. CRAP. Against some factions it is more crap than others. Good luck trying to kill Thros or Wolfhounds with it, or Alanquas. This is the only position I have that I don't think I will ever change. Its range is the only good thing about it. Though it would be a shame if such an interesting unit concept was wasted. I think outside of the campaign it should be replaced with its own miniaturized version. What I thought of would be a robotic unit, basically a small landing pad on tracks. It would be robotic to save space that would be needed for the crew, and it should fit inside a Tank Bunker. It should be faster but slightly less armored than the big Gehenna, and as a side effect of being robotic it would be immune to MC. It would also fit in lore-wise perfectly, currently there is no explaination why the Gehenna has map-wide range when its gunning for the Paradox but much smaller at other times, but with a smaller platform it could be argued that the supplies it can carry for the interceptor are more limited. Now, a mini-Gehenna would retain most of the issues the current vehicle has, but I think the added mobility would make up for them.
 

And balance isn't tuned according to "what is popular and what is not", because if we are being honest, Russia and soviets in general are noob-friendly sides, hence their popularity. Allies and Epsilon require more game knowledge and skills. So, stop saying that Epsilon is weak, because it isn't, the player behind the side is.


Petya, I think the very definition of imbalanced gameplay lies in that some things require more effort / skill to produce the same results as other things. Though I definetaly wouldn't say that HQ, SC, or EA, or USA are weak in their current form. With PF I don't have much experience.


Edited by Divine, 10 November 2018 - 01:54 AM.


#48 Tathmesh

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 02:19 AM

I would continue by trashing the Mastermind -it would remain in the campaign to some degree but in-lore it shouldn't go beond prototype phase. I'd also keep it as a crate goodie. The Dybbuk Siezer would take over the late-game mind control ability, though as a fragile aircraft, it should be faster but also easier to kill than a Mastermind in a deathblob. I would nerf the Magnetron by taking away its ability to harm buildings completely, and instead adding a dedicated siege unit to PsiCorps, preferably one that also has some use as an anti-armor unit (see my "Juggernaut" unit idea). I'd also add a new Libra. The current one should remain in the campaign, or at least up to a point in Act 2. The new Libra should not be the queen of nade noobs but instead use telekinesis exclusively to ruin the day of her victims. Flip tanks from afar, tear down structures, tear apart infantry limb from limb, you know. A flying infantry in tier 2 for harrassment (see my "Seraphim" unit idea), a reworked or completely repalced Gehenna, and a tier 3 monster that is a regular fighting unit instead of some gimmicky crap.

 

We could just add a new T3 subfaction specific infantry and call it a day.

 

Magnetic Trooper 

  • Uses attractive magnets to tear apart tank armor, either they deal direct damage or debuff enemy armor; gives PsiCorps some additional anti-armor options.
  • Uses repulsive/attractive magnets to slow down aircraft and ballistic missiles; this indirectly buffs Gehenna by allowing them to get more damage in and reduces their weakness of being unable to deal with fast-moving ballistic missiles. 

 

I don't know if slowing ballistic missiles down is possible though. 

 

Original concept art shown below

 

chinese-man-magnet-450w-271274687.jpg


Edited by Tathmesh, 10 November 2018 - 02:23 AM.


#49 Divine

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 02:39 AM

 

I would continue by trashing the Mastermind -it would remain in the campaign to some degree but in-lore it shouldn't go beond prototype phase. I'd also keep it as a crate goodie. The Dybbuk Siezer would take over the late-game mind control ability, though as a fragile aircraft, it should be faster but also easier to kill than a Mastermind in a deathblob. I would nerf the Magnetron by taking away its ability to harm buildings completely, and instead adding a dedicated siege unit to PsiCorps, preferably one that also has some use as an anti-armor unit (see my "Juggernaut" unit idea). I'd also add a new Libra. The current one should remain in the campaign, or at least up to a point in Act 2. The new Libra should not be the queen of nade noobs but instead use telekinesis exclusively to ruin the day of her victims. Flip tanks from afar, tear down structures, tear apart infantry limb from limb, you know. A flying infantry in tier 2 for harrassment (see my "Seraphim" unit idea), a reworked or completely repalced Gehenna, and a tier 3 monster that is a regular fighting unit instead of some gimmicky crap.

 

We could just add a new T3 subfaction specific infantry and call it a day.

 

Magnetic Trooper 

  • Uses attractive magnets to tear apart tank armor, either they deal direct damage or debuff enemy armor; gives PsiCorps some additional anti-armor options.
  • Uses repulsive/attractive magnets to slow down aircraft and ballistic missiles; this indirectly buffs Gehenna by allowing them to get more damage in and reduces their weakness of being unable to deal with fast-moving ballistic missiles. 

 

I don't know if slowing ballistic missiles down is possible though. 

 

Original concept art shown below

 

chinese-man-magnet-450w-271274687.jpg

 

Using magnetism to debuff the speed of airborne targets and indirectly buff the Gehenna occured to me as well, though I suggested it for the magnetron. There was a logical error tho, that fixed-wing aircraft would realistically stall if they were slowed down. I love the picture btw  :lol: Though not the idea itself, magnetism cannot damage armored vehicles by the in-universe logic of Mental Omega, and adding one more immobilizer would be redundant.



#50 Handepsilon

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 03:40 AM

Regarding gehenna vs Alanqa, I've heard rumors of the Dybbuk Interceptors causing the latter to fire on its' own fleet of pteras and killed them instead.

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#51 Petya

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 10:19 AM

Regarding gehenna vs Alanqa, I've heard rumors of the Dybbuk Interceptors causing the latter to fire on its' own fleet of pteras and killed them instead.

It's the same thing as using Brutes against Nuwas: they will start killing each other.



#52 Handepsilon

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 01:45 PM

Yeah, except Interceptor costing 0$ if the Gehenna stays alive, the interceptor's speed giving it a chance to outmaneuver the projectile and Alanqa themselves not hurt each others too much

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#53 Drezalnor

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 03:47 AM

I would continue by trashing the Mastermind -it would remain in the campaign to some degree but in-lore it shouldn't go beond prototype phase. I'd also keep it as a crate goodie. The Dybbuk Siezer would take over the late-game mind control ability, though as a fragile aircraft, it should be faster but also easier to kill than a Mastermind in a deathblob. I would nerf the Magnetron by taking away its ability to harm buildings completely, and instead adding a dedicated siege unit to PsiCorps, preferably one that also has some use as an anti-armor unit (see my "Juggernaut" unit idea). I'd also add a new Libra. The current one should remain in the campaign, or at least up to a point in Act 2. The new Libra should not be the queen of nade noobs but instead use telekinesis exclusively to ruin the day of her victims. Flip tanks from afar, tear down structures, tear apart infantry limb from limb, you know. A flying infantry in tier 2 for harrassment (see my "Seraphim" unit idea), a reworked or completely repalced Gehenna, and a tier 3 monster that is a regular fighting unit instead of some gimmicky crap.

 
We could just add a new T3 subfaction specific infantry and call it a day.
 
Magnetic Trooper 
  • Uses attractive magnets to tear apart tank armor, either they deal direct damage or debuff enemy armor; gives PsiCorps some additional anti-armor options.
  • Uses repulsive/attractive magnets to slow down aircraft and ballistic missiles; this indirectly buffs Gehenna by allowing them to get more damage in and reduces their weakness of being unable to deal with fast-moving ballistic missiles. 
 
I don't know if slowing ballistic missiles down is possible though. 
 
Original concept art shown below
 
chinese-man-magnet-450w-271274687.jpg
debuff enemy armor
I highlighted those words for a reason,Tathmesh.By debuffing enemy armor,you are making it not merely an anti-armor unit,but also potentially an anti-structure unit(similar to the Haihead Synchronin;if you consider that these guys use EM Coils that are smaller and weaker than those of the Magnetrons).If the debuff is capable of stacking,well,the Magnetic Trooper could well nigh end up becoming a slightly broken T3 support infantry for PsiCorps.

To slow down aircraft and missiles,you would need a superbuffed Magnetron.Nothing less would work.
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#54 Polaris Starnor

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 08:01 AM

Magnetic trooper doesn’t really fit in my personal opinion, ignoring how powerful it seems it just doesn’t cut it for me I guess, and aren’t Libra clones the T3 infantry anyway?

Superbuffed is stretching it, aircraft would generally be lighter than vehicles because they fly, and even minor exterior forces could probably send it crashing down. All the magnetron would really need is a more flexible turret to allow it to aim up, and due to the nature of the magnetron’s weapon it would just send everything flying crashing to the ground because now there’s a force of gravity in play, and the force produced by the aircraft wouldn’t be able to hold it up, kirovs would probably stay afloat along with epsilon aircraft because of the anti gravity tech. To just slow down aircraft you would need a weaker magnetic force.

#55 Tathmesh

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 12:46 PM

 

 

I would continue by trashing the Mastermind -it would remain in the campaign to some degree but in-lore it shouldn't go beond prototype phase. I'd also keep it as a crate goodie. The Dybbuk Siezer would take over the late-game mind control ability, though as a fragile aircraft, it should be faster but also easier to kill than a Mastermind in a deathblob. I would nerf the Magnetron by taking away its ability to harm buildings completely, and instead adding a dedicated siege unit to PsiCorps, preferably one that also has some use as an anti-armor unit (see my "Juggernaut" unit idea). I'd also add a new Libra. The current one should remain in the campaign, or at least up to a point in Act 2. The new Libra should not be the queen of nade noobs but instead use telekinesis exclusively to ruin the day of her victims. Flip tanks from afar, tear down structures, tear apart infantry limb from limb, you know. A flying infantry in tier 2 for harrassment (see my "Seraphim" unit idea), a reworked or completely repalced Gehenna, and a tier 3 monster that is a regular fighting unit instead of some gimmicky crap.

 
We could just add a new T3 subfaction specific infantry and call it a day.
 
Magnetic Trooper 
  • Uses attractive magnets to tear apart tank armor, either they deal direct damage or debuff enemy armor; gives PsiCorps some additional anti-armor options.
  • Uses repulsive/attractive magnets to slow down aircraft and ballistic missiles; this indirectly buffs Gehenna by allowing them to get more damage in and reduces their weakness of being unable to deal with fast-moving ballistic missiles. 
 
I don't know if slowing ballistic missiles down is possible though. 
 
Original concept art shown below
 
chinese-man-magnet-450w-271274687.jpg
debuff enemy armor
I highlighted those words for a reason,Tathmesh.By debuffing enemy armor,you are making it not merely an anti-armor unit,but also potentially an anti-structure unit(similar to the Haihead Synchronin;if you consider that these guys use EM Coils that are smaller and weaker than those of the Magnetrons).If the debuff is capable of stacking,well,the Magnetic Trooper could well nigh end up becoming a slightly broken T3 support infantry for PsiCorps.

To slow down aircraft and missiles,you would need a superbuffed Magnetron.Nothing less would work.

 

 

 

I never said it debuffs structure armor. It just debuffs vehicle armor.

 

 

Magnetic trooper doesn’t really fit in my personal opinion, ignoring how powerful it seems it just doesn’t cut it for me I guess, and aren’t Libra clones the T3 infantry anyway?

Superbuffed is stretching it, aircraft would generally be lighter than vehicles because they fly, and even minor exterior forces could probably send it crashing down. All the magnetron would really need is a more flexible turret to allow it to aim up, and due to the nature of the magnetron’s weapon it would just send everything flying crashing to the ground because now there’s a force of gravity in play, and the force produced by the aircraft wouldn’t be able to hold it up, kirovs would probably stay afloat along with epsilon aircraft because of the anti gravity tech. To just slow down aircraft you would need a weaker magnetic force.

 

 

I've not seen anyone in PvP mass enough Libra clones make it matter. You can easily spam Giantsbanes or Eradicator, and they give you a massive power boost, even if you had 3-4. Libra Clones are not like this at all. 

 

I don't understand what the rest of this comment is saying.

 

 

 

Using magnetism to debuff the speed of airborne targets and indirectly buff the Gehenna occured to me as well, though I suggested it for the magnetron. There was a logical error tho, that fixed-wing aircraft would realistically stall if they were slowed down. I love the picture btw  :lol: Though not the idea itself, magnetism cannot damage armored vehicles by the in-universe logic of Mental Omega, and adding one more immobilizer would be redundant.

 

 

 

 

I'm not gonna debate with you whether or not a magnet can rip apart concrete buildings, but not damage vehicles.

 

I think we can tolerate slight violation in realistic logic, considering that magnetic fields aren't suppose to be a concentrated beam anyways, tesla weapons would not hit anyone if they weren't the path of least resistance, and concentrated light can't be used to destroy tanks. 

 

I don't think redundancy is really an issue here. *COUGH* USA *COUGH*. *COUGH* IRRITATORS AND DEVIATRESSES *COUGH*

 

In fact, compared to other factions' unique tech, PsiCorps doesn't make enough use of their magnets. Prior to 3.3, Magnetic Satellite wasn't even a thing. It was just the Magnetron. Another magnetic unit wouldn't be that bad. 


Edited by Tathmesh, 14 November 2018 - 02:35 PM.


#56 Meyerm

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Posted 13 November 2018 - 04:49 PM

Not to mention it's just a soldier holding a giant magnet, expecting to not go flying as they direct it at a building many times their mass.



#57 Thesilver

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 10:28 AM

To be fair, that same logic applies to the magnetron aswell. And the magnetron even floats! Thats wayyy easier to pull.

 

Isn't it also kinda bullshit that the magnetron can't enter tank bunkers, i know its because of hover shenanigans but that vehicle is the one psicorps thing that would actually be really good in tank bunkers, which is always what has hindered tank bunkers, lack of good options.



#58 Petya

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 10:57 AM

Libra clones exist only for deceiving your opponent.



#59 LunaMoon

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 11:04 AM

Libra clones exist only for deceiving your opponent.

I don't agree with you. They are quite good on their own. They are fast, have good range, can kite...


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#60 Petya

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 01:07 PM

Conscripts are good too if you spam them. You can only get Libra Clones through support power, so you can't amass them unless you sit in your base and doing nothing.






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