232 replies to this topic

[m@tt]

If I wanted to, I could start now, but with so many units/heroes left to code in, it is quite difficult.

[Uruk King]

You know Dol Guldur is a bit short of units, namely Gaolers for defence and Castelans for single unit offensive (correct me if I'm wrong). But I was wondering couldn't Dol Guldur offer more like creature support as in wargs (and possibly riders), wraiths, and spiders of mirkwood. Just to suggest, I mean apart from defensive aid lent by Gaolers, bonus cavalry speed from the Nazgul, and Powerful support from castellans, Dol Guldur doesn't offer much unit-wise. If the team plans to release a campaign for evil eventually, the Foes of Mirkwood, Erebor and Dale would have less to than orcs, uruks, trolls and castelans

But this is of course a personal note nothing more, I don't mean to boycott the team with further work with this suggestion.

[Nertea]

... and this is different from Ithilien having one unit how?

[Gaelicman15]

You know I was thinking today, the Dwarves should have Lumberjacks like Isengard, because they need much wood to run their forges, and in the Silmarillion dwarves were the reason Yavanna made the Ents, to defend the forests against those that would cut them down for burning purposes.

[Uruk King]

... and this is different from Ithilien having one unit how?

Because Gondor already has elite archers, swordsmen, and knights, in each of it's minifaction. With a core faction stretching 8 types of core faction units (4 more coming from the Becons), each proving tougher than you average orc or uruk. As well as strong arsenal of heros including the Great Gandalf and the Almighty Aragorn. Ithilien provides the three main archer heros of Gondor which is of course

Mordor is generally meant to be a tougher foe to face due Sauron's influence speading throughout Middle-earth affecting all things evil. And I thought Dol Guldur would serve an example for which the player could buy in early-to-mid game, and purchass these creatures for suppport and defense. At this rate I'm not sure anyone agrees with me.

[Nertea]

And Mordor has elite archers, elite swordsmen and elite knights in one of its minifactions too. And Mordor has base troops that include free orcs, cheap archers, good siege equipment, powerful monsters, some of the toughest heroes in the game... Mordor has no lack of options even without minifactions. Dol Guldur just happens to be the anti-elf minifaction.

The point of minifactions isn't so that they can function on their own, they're support your army. You might make an army of castellans, but it will get destroyed by heroes. Minas Morgul could possibly function independantly, but it is unique in that respect.

In terms of overall concept, you buy a minifaction for a purpose yet you are in no way forced to pick it. For example, playing against Mirkwood - you don't need to pick any one faction. You could pick Morgul and use its bonuses and powers to improve your orcs, and wade through the arrows with improved orc spam, using the Nazgul to kill off heroes. You could pick Dol Guldur to shield your Black Uruks, gain access to hero cavalry (nazgul) and get a unit to counter elvish stealth and archery. You could also exploit the lack of elvish cavalry and pick Rhun in order to use Wainriders to crush the opposition.

So it's all about the combination with the main faction units. Saying that DG is weak in offensive units is like saying Dol Amroth is weak in defensive units. True, but the main faction provides the support. That's the rationale.

[cahik_]

very nice description Nertea you are great desinger

[Uruk King]

Well you've got me there Nertea, it's just that there could be so much more depth to what Dol Guldur could have been, with foul creatures as support for your orcs but you're explanation does really back up your logic so I'll drop this Dol Guldur disscussion

[Thorin]

Not sure if this has been suggested before, but could there be another upgrade (like forged blades etc) that allows your cavalry to move slightly faster and have less crush decelleration? Maybe a bit more crush damage too? Just an idea for another upgrade. I also like the idea of having an upgrade that gives infantry some crush damage and makes them slightly faster - like in the films at the Black Gate, where the goodies rush forwards and pretty much ran over their line like the Rohirrim's charge in Helms Deep/Pelennor Fields. Probably a bit late in the day for this suggestion, just thought that with upgrades like increased archer accuracy these would fit in quite well.

[m@tt]

How would that work as an upgrade? As in.. what IS the upgrade? IMO, things like crush damage should be left to powers/spells.

[MasterSilver]

You know Dol Guldur is a bit short of units, namely Gaolers for defence and Castelans for single unit offensive (correct me if I'm wrong). But I was wondering couldn't Dol Guldur offer more like creature support as in wargs (and possibly riders), wraiths, and spiders of mirkwood. Just to suggest, I mean apart from defensive aid lent by Gaolers, bonus cavalry speed from the Nazgul, and Powerful support from castellans, Dol Guldur doesn't offer much unit-wise. If the team plans to release a campaign for evil eventually, the Foes of Mirkwood, Erebor and Dale would have less to than orcs, uruks, trolls and castelans

I'd tend to agree with you that creature support would be a nice touch, especailly spiders, I mean Mirkwood was teeming with them. That is not to say that they were directly under Sauron's controll, in the same way Shelob wasn't. All evil still served him in one way or another though(in the 3rd Age).

Edited by m@tt, 22 April 2008 - 04:25 PM.
fixed quote

[Thorin]

How would that work as an upgrade? As in.. what IS the upgrade? IMO, things like crush damage should be left to powers/spells.

Exactly the same as forged blades, for example.

Let's call this reduce-crush-decelerration/increase-speed/increase-crush-damage upgrade 'Steeds of Rohan'.

So, you go to the blacksmith (or stable, like where you get horseshields), click buy Steeds of Rohan, and you buy that. You then select your cavalry, click on the upgrade that says 'Steeds of Rohan', and your cavalry now does more crush damage, is faster, and can run over more units.

Just like any other upgrade...

Alternatively, it could also be left to a power. So a reasonably high level power, one is 'Steeds of Rohan', that upgrades everyone of your cavalry units to do the said things (including heroes), and another that is a bit lower level power called something like 'For Frodo', that makes all your infantry faster and, while not knocking the enemy units down, can still do that initial crush damage before engaging in normal combat (including heroes).

Edited by Thorin, 22 April 2008 - 04:09 PM.

[m@tt]

I know what an upgrade is... *slaps forehead* I was talking about the physical upgrade, not the effects or how it works.

Forged Bladed = better made swords
fire arrows = fire for arrows
marksmen = archer training
horse shields = shields for horse
steeds of rohan = ?

There seems to be no physical upgrade, the horse just suddenly becomes better, so therefore I can't see being an upgrade, just a power.

[Thorin]

the horse just suddenly becomes better, so therefore I can't see being an upgrade

An upgrade is them getting better! Still, I get what you mean now.

As my example name probably guessed...

Forged Blades = better made swords
Fire arrows = fire for arrows
Marksmen = archer training
Horse shields = shields for horse
Steeds of Rohan = better quality horses
For Frodo = Lighter armour

Rohan, obviously, already having Steeds of Rohan, could perhaps have 'Kin of the Mearas'. The infantry one works by having lighter armour, meaning they can move faster, so can hit the enemy harder (and cause initial crush damage).

[Uruk King]

Lighter armour means that they become more vunerable, this increased trample speed could come in the form of a Rohan Spellbook power which works the smae way as warchant but a very specialized warchant designed to maintain speed during trample, and possibly increased damage. You know that could work alongside the other Rohan powers if the draft spell is moved to the Rohan citadel as a ready to use power.

@ MasterSilver, thanks for the support Besides even if the creatures don't exist within the Dol Guldur minifac they could be summonable as a power.

[Thorin]

Lighter armour means that they become more vunerable,

Says who? I didn't say that. I said lighter armour, not weaker. Like how titanium is lighter than steel yet just as strong. And how mithril is lighter than everything and stronger than everything.

Edited by Thorin, 22 April 2008 - 04:57 PM.

[Gaelicman15]

Says who? I didn't say that. I said lighter armour, not weaker. Like how titanium is lighter than steel yet just as strong. And how mithril is lighter than everything and stronger than everything.

Have you studied medieval armour and weapons? Lighter is weaker, with the exception of mithril, mind telling me how the Rohirrim or Gondorians got their hands on a bucketload of that to just hand it out to their troops? Anyway, I had an idea on Isengard's ranged units, the book never says one thing about crossbows being used, this was probably just a thought by Jackson to make Isengard look more advanced in technology and as was stated in another topic they were easier to use. In fact it plainly states in the book the Uruks of Isengard having bows of yew. This implies a smaller version of the longbow such as Faramir's Rangers use, not the composite bow that Lurtz carries in the movie, those are generally made out of bone or horn for the orcs.

[Thorin]

Have you studied medieval armour and weapons?

No. Have you?

Lighter is weaker

Only when keeping the same material as there is simply less of it. Using a different material is different. Your comments are absurd - I already gave an example of titanium being as strong as steel while being much lighter.

with the exception of mithril,

Titanium? Steel? Carbon nanotubing? Iron? Strength is not dependant on weight, only on the material.

mind telling me how the Rohirrim or Gondorians got their hands on a bucketload of that to just hand it out to their troops?

They don't need bucketloads. There's this magical thing in Lord of the Rings that is very particular there - it's called an "alloy". They mix together different metals to make a better one, and only very small amounts of any particular metal can make the alloy far stronger. What a silly idea in today's world!

But again, they don't even need mithril. With improvements in technology, they find better alloys which can keep the strength and make it lighter, or keep the weight and make it stronger (however a second armour upgrade would be rather pointless).

[Uruk King]

Right I see your meaning; I must have lost what I was thinking rambling about Rohan Powers.

[Elen Naro]

Adding my 2 pence: didn't the elves and dwarves forge strong, yet light blades? Of course it would be rather difficult for Rohan to get by, but Gondor might have learned something via their Nûmenorean heritage.