232 replies to this topic

[Nertea]

Key problem when considering unit upgrades - slots. The palantir only has room for 6. Commandset switching isn't really practical on a mere unit. With Rohirrim already having FB, HA, Banner, Horse Shields and upgrade X, that only leaves one slot, which is taken up by the formation. So there isn't room essentially to have it as an upgrade. Globally you could do it but then there's the question of balance - what happens when you give a horse-heavy faction an ability that upgrades all their units for free? It would have to be a decently weak upgrade in that case. That's not to say I won't consider it, because Rohan is the the faction whose deign I'm least happy with at the moment, but those are my concerns.

As for the infantry idea, there are some engine limitations in there. Sure, it's fine for a game where momentum is considered, but BFME doesn't do that. What's to stop a player from rapidly clicking on the unit he wants to attack and essentially resetting the ability to create another mini-charge?

[Thorin]

Regarding the infantry thing, the same thing is stopping them as the same thing that stops horses continually riding over enemies. I'm not a coder or anything so I don't know if it'd work, but can't you make it so charges can only be made every 5 seconds or something?

Upgrade X, eh? You mean horses get another upgrade? Better steeds = better than Upgrade X!

If there isn't room in the Palantir then I think there are two options; global upgrade and global spell. If it was a global upgrade it'd have to be very expensive and probably not quite so strong. If it was a global spell I think it would need to be quite high level (say, requiring 10 points).

Just of note - I wasn't just referring to Rohan, I think it'd be good as an upgrade/power for any of the factions. And also I think it would be good applying it to heroes too (which may well serve the global thing better). The infantry one simply might not be possible, though.

Just on a similar subject, can you remember that Shadowfax is the fastest horse, and that Eomer's horse (and even Glorfindel's) should never be able to keep up with it

[mike_]

Personally I think a "For Frodo" upgrade would work better as an improved "Warchant"-type spell.
And yes, they've remembered it
Cheers,
-mike

[Thorin]

Always found it so stupid how Eomer was the same speed as Gandalf, and before the patches, Theoden was slower than Generic Rohirrim, when Theoden outran all 6000 riders on the Fields of Pelennor.
IMO, in speed terms (not including flying units and kept in constant order regardless of speed upgrades)

1) Gandalf (Shadowfax)
2) Glorfindel (Asfaloth)
3) Theoden (Snowmane)
4) Nazgul
=5) Elven Cavalry (inc. Elven Cavalry Heroes)
=5) Dunedain Cavalry (inc. Aragorn's Steed Roheryn)
6) Rohirrim (inc. Rohan's Cavalry Heros)
7) All other cavalry

Just a nice touch that doesn't particularly affect balance but just adds that bit more realism.

If a 'For Frodo' was viable at all, I agree it'd be better as a warchant ability that increases speed and does initial crush damage. I only suggested it as a global thing to increase the absolutely lame speed of the Guards of the Citadel

[Lauri]

When your riding and your aim is death, I'm sure you don't mind running from your troops....

But as Theoden ain't running for death at every battle, he should indeed have the same speed as the Rohirrim, in my opinion
Also, in my eyes..

1. Gandalf
2. Glorfindel
3. Nazgul
4. The rest...
5. The armored rest... (if requierd )

I'm putting the Nazguls in 3rd, because they are more of an scary ghost on horseback to put fear in their enemies, rather than real fighthers... (IMO)
Glorfindel... well, I don't remember it to detail, but I think I remember that his steed were indeed a hell of a steed...

To make my statement... It's just dang annoying if your mounted forces doesn't have the same speed... Your sending your cavalry force to the enemy... Theoden's halfway dead before the rest comes... Same goes for Gandalf, but he can manage alone better (with ze skills and all)

[Nertea]

Thorin, if you want to make another thread for Rohan-y ideas I wouldn't be opposed to it. They're the most poorly defined faction right now and probably the one that I'm the most open to making drastic changes to.

Also Lauri is right in horse speeds, it's better for gameplay to match the more minor heroes with their cavalry, not that they couldn't run faster, but that it just works better.

[Gaelicman15]

Also Lauri is right in horse speeds, it's better for gameplay to match the more minor heroes with their cavalry, not that they couldn't run faster, but that it just works better.

Hmm... on that note, I have an idea, I don't know if it's possible but can you make the horse speeds vary with the different units they travel with? Let me clarify, in Age of Empires II if you selected a knight and a men-at-arms and told them to move then the knight would slow down as to avoid the afore-mentioned run into the enemy and die problem. I was just wondering if this was possible so that if you have peasants and Theoden selected then Theoden would slow down and trot slowly with the peasants while still riding his horse.

[Thorin]

But as Theoden ain't running for death at every battle

Isn't that the point of a battle?

I understand what you're saying, in that regard, though I've never really had a problem with Eomer, for example, riding off that little bit ahead. If it were possible as Gaelicman said, where when selected in groups units travel at the same speed, I think Theoden should then have his individual speed a bit faster.

The Nazgul's steeds were said to be very strong and very fast - a point was made, infact, of saying just how fast they were, just to emphasise that Asfaloth (Glorfindel's) was even faster. Their mean strength was fear, as you said, but unlike the army of the dead they had physical power - both with a sword and with mind.

Elven horses (and thus Dunedain horses - although can the Dunedain mount?) were said to be better than the horses of the Rohirrim, except the Mearas. So while I understand keeping the speed of mounted heroes constant within a faction, I think they should be different across factions - so that Elven cavalry (all 1 unit that they have ) is faster than Rohirrim, which is faster than Wargs/Gondor Cavalry etc.

Back to the Theoden thing, though, as there are mounted royal guards, do you think then that the royal guards could be faster than other cavalry, allowing Theoden to ride up ahead and be faster than normal Rohirrim and yet not be alone. I just want to re-enact the charge of the Pelennor!

Nertea, are you running the mod now or is it still Dain?

[Nertea]

Finally someone recognizes that I have usurped the leadership of the mod! No, Dain is still running it, he just happens to be in charge of different factions than the ones we're talking about.

And IIRC BFME doesn't have a speed constancy feature. BFME2 does I think, but this game is limited. So here's how I would put it:
-Gandalf
-Glorfindel
-Nazgul
-All Elf Cavalry
-All Rohan Cavalry (incl. heroes)
-All Lightly Armoured other Cavalry (eg. some Daleic units) and Wargs (incl. heroes in this class, like Sharku and Hildigais)
-All Heavily Armoured other Cavalry (eg. Knights of Gondor, KoDA, Knights of Morgul, also includes heavily armoured heroes like Boromir and Faramir and Imrahil)

I think it's the best that can be done with the limited system and keeping "troop" heroes with their troops.

[Thorin]

I'd agree with that. I'm surprised BFME doesn't have a sort of group-speed thing, though, considering Age of Empires has it! Are EA only just catching up?

[Uruk King]

Thanks Nertea, for perfecting Middle-earth cavalry and heroes

[Gaelicman15]

Hey I just had an idea, it mainly applies to the trebuchets but it can also apply to the other catapults I guess, there should be a rank system for the siege weapons, instead of attack and hitpoints being boosted it could be accuracy, like level 1 50% accuracy and up to five levels it goes up 10%. Level 5 being 90%, because no matter how good a mathmetician or leader you are, there is no way to be 100% accurate with a Trebuchet.

[mike_]

That's actually both a good and viable idea.
Heh, I'd support it would also work well for archers, though it might make them OP what with the current upgrades.
Cheers,
-mike

[Elen Naro]

You could just give archers a damage bonus. As in: marksman upgrade makes them hit the enemy, veterancy makes them hit the enemy where it is most lethal.


As for the mearas being faster than the elven steeds, wouldn't the great horses of Valinor outrun them? (Of course these are of no real significance in the 3rd age, save perhaps for Glorfindel, Aragorn and the roquentari, but none of them should be able to outrun Shadowfax).

[Canterbury]

I like the accuracy increase for siege weapons idea. Funny scenario. Enemy units are moving across the catapult's range of fire. The catapult fires, but misses the intended target area. Since the enemy units are moving away from the target area, the missed projectile lands and kills the enemy

[Thorin]

As for the mearas being faster than the elven steeds, wouldn't the great horses of Valinor outrun them? (Of course these are of no real significance in the 3rd age, save perhaps for Glorfindel, Aragorn and the roquentari, but none of them should be able to outrun Shadowfax).

Not if legend is true, no. The Mearas are said to be descended from the Lord of Horses himself - Orome's great steed Nahar. However, that doesn't stop there from being other descendants of Nahar in Valinor - kin of the Mearas, so to speak, but (apart from Nahar, obviously) none would be 'obviously' or 'specially' better than the Mearas of Middle-earth. To be honest, we just don't have enough information, but on the whole, the descandants of Nahar are going to be the best, regardless of them being steeds of Elves or Men.

[Lauri]

one bad thing about the ranking of a siegemachine... is if you have walls, you just put him behind them, and he ranks, gets uber, and when your ready to crush your enemy... you'll crush him alright

And aye, EA's just catching up... It wasn't made for BFME2, but RotWK acctually Aye, that's even later than BFME2

[Gaelicman15]

Well that's why you change it (if you can, I'm sure it's possible) so when he ranks up his hitpoints and attack don't go up, just accuracy. As a catapult commander gets more experienced he doesn't make the catapult launch a bigger rock or anything, he just knows how to use the catapult better than a fresh captain. By the way, is it possible to make it so the trebuchets would only go up five levels instead of ten?

Edited by Gaelicman15, 24 April 2008 - 09:29 PM.

[Olorin]

I like that idea for the trebuchets.

On the whole horses keeping up with infantry thing, I'm pretty sure that combining cavalry with infantry (in one battalion, mind you) keeps them in step. Judging from what's been said, it's probably impossible to implement into seperate battalions, but I'm just throwing it out there for the sake of it.

[Nertea]

I think that it is impossible to upgrade accuracy with a veterancy upgrade. I could be wrong but I think this was discussed at some point and the result was no.