1120 replies to this topic

[Iluvatar]

Well, I like the Idea, but would it be good than if you would take ancient dwarves, lead by tthe 7 dwarflords? Cause the must be a little balanced to Balrog, Dragon, Army of the Dead etc..it would be a bit sad, you're 25 PP army destroyed by army of the dead, wich can kill your other units after the 25PP army...

Jakob J.

[Dalf32]

oooo, i really like the summon iron hills army idea. that would be pretty diferent for a 25 pp power. they would need to be fully upgraded (like dain's summon royal guard power) but it oculd work. only issue is it would need some reskinning or modeling otherwise it would just be the normal dwarves and not nearly as fun

[Srg Insane]

I like the idea of a dwarven 25pp army, i think that it should spawn dwarven zelots, i mean you half to have an army that can be effective at destroying buildings and units as well as being able to take on other 25pp powers like the balrog or army of the dead. Give the zelots a trample power like calvary and you have an army thats good enough to contend with with the other pp powers.

[Devon]

They could be permanent too...as opposed to aod and balrog which disappear quick. If you managed them well enough, you could eventually get 2-3 armies at one time.

[Myrdin]

and they of course WILL use you pop limit, becouse the idea that you summon it 3 times ( for example, having 12 batalions ) and + your dwarf army, sounds pretty ( excues me ) idiotic, and screwes up the whole balance.

and i dont really think they should be able to take on AotD. Srg Insane, Army of the dead, has name Army of the dead, becouse its ARMY OF THE DEAD !!! which means they are already dead , ghosts, spirits, protoplazmatic beings, call it whatever you want.

AotD can be killed though ( if balrog stamps over them, they can get burned by dragon flame, and such " strong " dmg types, oo fast forgot, silverthorn arrow can kill them too, same with hero abilities that do dmg ).

a living dwarf, even if hes cloathed in runic armor, beasrs runic hammer, has runnic helm, on foot runic shoes, and even runic underwear, he cant kill something that is already dead.
AotD is army killer, the little dmg they do to buildings, isnt concerning anyone, and they " exist " for wery short time. Soo theres really not a reason why should be anyone able to kill them, if all they can do is wipe out army that runs in their path and wont be able to make it to find another target - its ok as it is.

one more thing - i think AotD should be able to walk through walls and gates ( they are ghosts after all, it was nicely done, when they " walked " out of the ships in Return of the king )

Edited by Myrdin, 12 April 2008 - 05:50 PM.

[Dalf32]

myrdin, i dont think he was saying that they should be able to kill aotd, but should be equal in usefulness and destruction power.

yoda, if we made them permanent it would have to be painstakingly balanced, so watch out for that. it wouldnt really be all that large then; 5 fu batts might be enough actually. i mean dain's lvl 10 power is permanent and is 3 fu batts. if its gonna be much larger than that it should be temporary imo.

[Devon]

I'd actually say 10-15, and they shouldnt count to cp. Perhaps my example of summoning 3 times was a bad one. Consider:

A single spell like balrog or aod or dragon would wipe them out almost instantly and still leave the other spell plenty of time to mass destruct. That means you just wasted a 25pp pretty much, though it did save the rest of your army from getting destroyed while they were destroyed. Added to that, you'll probably use this only when you're about to attack, so most will either die anyway or you'll win. Added to that, it would have a high cooldown like the balrog and AoD, so it's unlikely you would ever get more than 2 at the same time.

[Dalf32]

if it were 10-15 would they be upgraded or what? if you got 15, even jsut 10 fu batts instantly w/o them counting towards your cp you could theoretically double your army instantly and unless they used another 25 pp power, you would win. if 10-15 i say give them a long timer, but a timer nonetheless.

[Devon]

If the enemy summoned a balrog in the middle of your base, you'd be dead unless you used a 25pp yourself or somehow distracted it and the enemie's army....I think 10 FU would be alright.

[Myrdin]

10 FU batalions . . . . stop comparing just to Balrog !
10 bats could easily wipe out shade of the wolf
10 bats could EASILY wipe out 3 hunters ( rohan )
10 bats could propably slice a dragon into shreds too ( coz dragon takes long to attack, and has no power at all - just flying to diferent location, . . . . )

well as much as i count

10 batalions, created of units lets say : 4 guardians, 3 phalanxes and 3 axethrowers. . . . . This is a power that can bring down fortress, and thats something that none of other " utli " summons can. ( even balrog has problems, even if he uses all of his abilities, its still wery hard to take down fortress, and you will propably kill his lvl 3 prodction units, and leave his base " naked " not going immediatly for fortress ), dragon - no chance, he deals like 1/4 of his dmg to fortrees ( full dmg to other buildings, is good, but fortress is something diferent ), shade wont be able to even " scratch " fortress, for he is the weakest of them all ( 5000 hp and low armor, he relies on speed, and hp refiling abilitiy )

and to finish this

10 bats could ( not easily, but if FU ) kill at least 2 of the istary ( from summon istary power ), even if Saruman would convert some of them.
For dont forget, dwarfes are dangerous and powerfull enemy even without upgrades

[Funbomb]

Shade of wolf uses his thing to freeze the units and runs. Can use his dog calling thing and other spells he has. Hunters, yeah, they are pretty much doomed. Maybe dragon, he can kill like 1/4 of your army with one attack.

[Devon]

10 FU batalions . . . . stop comparing just to Balrog !
10 bats could easily wipe out shade of the wolf
10 bats could EASILY wipe out 3 hunters ( rohan )
10 bats could propably slice a dragon into shreds too ( coz dragon takes long to attack, and has no power at all - just flying to diferent location, . . . . )

well as much as i count

10 batalions, created of units lets say : 4 guardians, 3 phalanxes and 3 axethrowers. . . . . This is a power that can bring down fortress, and thats something that none of other " utli " summons can. ( even balrog has problems, even if he uses all of his abilities, its still wery hard to take down fortress, and you will propably kill his lvl 3 prodction units, and leave his base " naked " not going immediatly for fortress ), dragon - no chance, he deals like 1/4 of his dmg to fortrees ( full dmg to other buildings, is good, but fortress is something diferent ), shade wont be able to even " scratch " fortress, for he is the weakest of them all ( 5000 hp and low armor, he relies on speed, and hp refiling abilitiy )

and to finish this

10 bats could ( not easily, but if FU ) kill at least 2 of the istary ( from summon istary power ), even if Saruman would convert some of them.
For dont forget, dwarfes are dangerous and powerfull enemy even without upgrades

'
I'm not comparing just to Balrog, but you brought up fortress killers so I called him. Shade of wolf is just stupid anyway, and will likely be replaced. Three hunters will probably be made permanent summon (though if they die you cant recall) and changed to 15pp. Dragon could easily own 10 hordes....Idk what you're talking about. 1 fire breath and 2/3 or 3/4 die, another 1-2 to finish them. Balrog can own an entire fortress (with barracks and range etc) in minutes....believe me, I've been on the receiving end of this more than once. AoD and Balrog would own them in seconds, dragon and dragonstrike likewise....sunflare and earthquake and stampede and flood and rain of fire all would completly anhiliate your army...

[Funbomb]

Especially dragon strike, it has a huge aoe. For the balrog, I believe you, I'm usually on the giving side and killing most or all buildings around fortress and killing or almost killing fortress depending on how well guarded it is with unit/heroes and other things.

[Srg Insane]

So were tryin to figure out what would make the best 25pp for the dwarves, another idea would be a massive dale army, dont know what type of units they would have since there are only 2. A massive dwarven catapalt attack would make a good 25pp power similer to mordors attack. those are some ideas im just throwing out there.

[Myrdin]

yoda if you didnt see - i didnt compare summon power to dmg dealing ! of course ANY dmg power ( rain of fire, dragon breath, sunflare, Horse stampade, etc etc ) could wipe down army, thats the purpose here.

and i may have say this wrong, you propably though about RJs. ok soo - Balrog wont wipe fortress in NORMAL map, for the player has much more space to roam around, and the frotress has some other add ons.

AND I DONT BELIEVE - YOU - are going directly after fortress, for thats a waste of balrog, if he can slice any other buidling with 3 hits, then its of course logical that you kill all his production building and all around ( well breath of fire can take care of 3 at once, if placed well, of course placed soo it hits fortress too ). For if you kill his fortres he migth still win ( for example i newer build fortress in WoTR, all i need is production buidings, resources and stuff, not fortress - vs brutal ). Balrog COULD kill the fortress, but that would waste all his time ( if fortress is FU, and i believe that at the time of Balrog comes, its usually a bit upgraded already, maybe fu ) and he wouldnt be able to kill anything other.

btw, i think shade is not useless, at least is werevolf unit ( i love werevolfs ), and now i will say something that you propably wont like - when he is SUMMONED the explosion of ice shard deals dmg like Sunflare - itself can wipe army, and vs those who survived, and buildings is the shade there. as you said " believe me ", then now you believe me. I destroyed clumped forces of enemy just by summoning him, and then used him vs heroes who survived, or buildings + my own army.
Becouse shade is soo weak his ice shard deals huge dmg.

i dont see a reason why you want diferent 25pp, i think the powers dwarves got suit them well, for both have something to do with " earth "

btw, i dont like the idea having 3hunter 15pp and newer usable again. Whats the point of buying the spell when i cant use it newer again. ( ok you said they would be permanent - ok, but they can be killed too, especially Legolas, and a power that is just for one use aint worth my pp nor my attention, make it like 15-20 minutes recharge or something but not just " one use " )

[Dalf32]

ok myrdin, calm down. this is a conversation, not a debate. you're not helping anything by just arguing, its about constructive suggestions.
and the shade of wolf's ice explosion when he is summoned is no better than the balrog's fire explosion when he is summoned. so if that is taken into account, it gives no advantage to shade over the balrog (as they both have it), so i would still think that compared to balrog shade is underpowered (although not useless).

srg, the dwarves already have a massive catapult as their fortress expansion; did you mean something like that?

Edited by Dalf32, 13 April 2008 - 01:47 PM.

[Myrdin]

aaahahah, now wait a moment, im not arguing. just becouse i type through caps lock, to make big words, it doesnt necesarry mean im ready to start argument

when i type LIKE THIS, it means i want your attention, especcially on this word, or line. For you trying to find argument in everything is make me feel weird

and my dear Dalf, THERE IS pretty huge diference, balrogs explosion is nothing compared to shade, if you dont believe just try it summon, on your own units, let them stand in formations, and summon : Balrog, and in diferent game Shade, Shade AoE is like 2x bigger. and i wont pull back on this one

[Scryer]

To be honest I have never noticed a difference between the Shade's and the Balrog's summon explosions. But then again, I'm not a good BFME player as I just like to see the units flying everywhere .

I don't get why we are changing the 25pp powers for the Dwarves. I think that the current ones suit them well, like someone else said. If anyone has a couple of good reasons as to why one of the Dwarves' 25pp powers should be replaced, I'll lend my ear. Then again, I might not have been paying much attention..... I think that if any power needs to be discussed between the Good Factions, it would be Tom Bombadil, but let's finish this 25pp discussion before we move onto that.

I strongly think that the Three Hunters should just stay as Rohan's 25pp power. I think that they should be timed (but a longer timer than the Balrog's). Besides what would you replace them with?

Edited by Scryer, 13 April 2008 - 05:17 PM.

[Iluvatar]

I like the three hunters too, only why can aragorn mount?? It doesnt make much sense if he can and legolas and gimly cant, i'd like a mounted araorn and legolas, but not in the 25PP. Besides, is it possible to record some bilbo voices from the movie(or do it by yourself:P) and let him say that..cause Sam's voice for Bilbo is bit weird;)

Jakob J.

[Myrdin]

To be honest I have never noticed a difference between the Shade's and the Balrog's summon explosions. But then again, I'm not a good BFME player as I just like to see the units flying everywhere .

I don't get why we are changing the 25pp powers for the Dwarves. I think that the current ones suit them well, like someone else said. If anyone has a couple of good reasons as to why one of the Dwarves' 25pp powers should be replaced, I'll lend my ear. Then again, I might not have been paying much attention..... I think that if any power needs to be discussed between the Good Factions, it would be Tom Bombadil, but let's finish this 25pp discussion before we move onto that.

I strongly think that the Three Hunters should just stay as Rohan's 25pp power. I think that they should be timed (but a longer timer than the Balrog's). Besides what would you replace them with?

yeah that was me, for i too think that dwarfes need change of their pp less of all other ( as i said, they are good as they are - pp i mean ). good to see that we can agree at something