1712 replies to this topic

[Uruk King]

There are some really good ideas in there. do these units go into Arnor and the Elves and dunedain go out?

Well not really, I imagined that the Elves and Rangers were still in the faction but would be lodged in the Inn, or summoned from the beacon, but not totally removed.

I am REALLY sorry for triple post. Anyway, Uruk King, too many elites. I think it would unbalance all the factions and make arnor some
"uber" faction. Keep it at one unit, and 3 limited hordes.
I like the flow of ideas coming here, actually. But Cardolan Riders? Never mentioned in Tolkein's works.

The idea being that Arnor would start of with poor militia units in early game, then resort to elite units to make up for the militia, they can still be countered the way you would counter horsemen with spears, anyway they aren't even MMHs, just darn good units, and they're limited, the whole MMH thing is a mess anyway.

No elves? Are you kidding? Without them, Arnor would have been completely doomed.

What? Well no not really, they were dunedain after all, not some weak lesser kingdom of men, and if one small realm of men could hold out agaisnt overwhelming odds, what's there to say the strong realm of descendants of Numenor couldn't (other than the fact they were divided and where growing weak), by all means they had the friendship with the elves but they weren't overly dependent.

[{IRS}Athos]

I believe that Glorfindel led elves to Amon Sul to reinforce Arveleg's garrison... and yes, saying they were doomed was somewhat of a hyperbole.

[dojob]

A higher tier barracks would sound good. Perhaps either one can build when you have a level 3 barracks, or have it immediately available but at a very high price.

Oh no, I just meant that elites would come from lvl2/3 regular barracks

[shadowcreature]

Ah, that works too. The Barracks right now imo is a little empty anyhow.

[Eärendur]

But as for Cardolan units, maybe the Arnor Builder can have a side structure (like the Gondor Builder's Ithilien Outpost) on his palantir, maybe called an "Arnor Beacon" or Dunedain Beacon" that could look something like this:

And like the Ithilien Outpost, it would garrison about 5 units, and could train either "Cardolan Riders" or an archer unit like "Cardolan Rangers" (Rangers with Toggle sword/bow and mount/dismount) which would replace the Dunedain units, and heavy pike units called "Barrow-Down Guardians" or something like that.

And in the end just dump the Elves and Dunedain, and add more men units (along with the Archers and Soldiers, which, by-the-way, need to be renamed Arnor not Dunedain), such as Fornost Spearmen (Pikemen), Dunedain Bladebearers (late-game Swordsmen), Knights of Fornost (Cavalry), Arnor Captain (Leadership unit), Arnor Catapult (siege unit), and Annuminas Steelbows (Archer MHH), or Annuminas Champions (Pikeman MHH). Plus any other necessary units.

Why not keep the Elven Barracks (with a reduced amount of units, say, the Mithlond Sentries, and the Elven Captain , whose Elves only leadership can be moved and increased to Glorfindel) and the Elven Alliance at the fortress (and add Glorfindel at the fortress also but make that you have to buy the Elven alliance before you can train him), dump the dunedain, and then ad my ideas (quoted above).

Edited by Eärendur, 09 April 2009 - 07:18 PM.

[dojob]

This is why:

Meh, Arnor's already a fine, complete faction as it is; it has a distinct style, fairly unique gameplay, and it doesn't completely go against the lore, so I don't think it needs any large changes like getting rid of Hobbits or moving subfactions around; aside from maybe altering their heroes, the only changes that would actually help the faction, imo, would be to combine Arnor soldiers and archers into a single early toggle horde and then have elite specialists like swordsmen, steelbowmen, and pikes come from higher-tiered barracks. The beacons are also a pretty good idea for people playing on fortress maps, but there's absolutely no need to mess with Arnor's fundemental mechanics, especially when you're trying to make Arnor so damned boring...

[Eärendur]

I know that I'm repeating myself here, but...
In my opinion Arnor is not a "complete faction as it is", it is a faction that has the potential to be one of the best factions in the game. But only if everybody stops arguing about the same things over and over again, starts over, and lays down what they think should be added/removed, or changed.

Edited by Eärendur, 09 April 2009 - 10:48 PM.

[Dunedain Lord]

making them an all men faction is not making it like gondor
one can have pure archers like steelbowman
the other specializing in swordsmen and pikes
u know what i mean

[dojob]

Yeah, I'm ok with adding elite soldiers, pikes, and steelbowmen at later-tiered Arnor barracks, except that the basic unit is an archer/soldier toggle unit, just to keep it unique. That way, Arnor would have more human units while still keeping its uniqueness and not creating any changes that would lead to redundancy, and I have no problem with adding more human units if that's the kind of thing you're going for.

But getting rid of either Hobbits, Elves, Dunedain, or Istari would get rid of that distinct style of an alliance faction of many races and groups.

What is a faction that can't permanently summon any nonhuman allies and is primarily made up armored human units? Gondor. How would getting rid of Elves or Dunedain make Arnor unique from Gondor? How would it make Arnor any more complete than it already is?

Keeping them at inns isn't enough btw, since even Gondor or Rohan can get Elves and Dwarves from inns, and what happens for Arnor players on maps that have no inns?

Edited by dojob, 10 April 2009 - 02:00 AM.

[{IRS}Athos]

*agrees wholeheartedly with dojob*

[Dunedain Lord]

Yeah, I'm ok with adding elite soldiers, pikes, and steelbowmen at later-tiered Arnor barracks, except that the basic unit is an archer/soldier toggle unit, just to keep it unique. That way, Arnor would have more human units while still keeping its uniqueness and not creating any changes that would lead to redundancy, and I have no problem with adding more human units if that's the kind of thing you're going for.

But getting rid of either Hobbits, Elves, Dunedain, or Istari would get rid of that distinct style of an alliance faction of many races and groups.

What is a faction that can't permanently summon any nonhuman allies and is primarily made up armored human units? Gondor. How would getting rid of Elves or Dunedain make Arnor unique from Gondor? How would it make Arnor any more complete than it already is?

Keeping them at inns isn't enough btw, since even Gondor or Rohan can get Elves and Dwarves from inns, and what happens for Arnor players on maps that have no inns?

WHOA, that is not what i am saying
Take away Dunedain? Heck no.
Elves, they should be limited greatly, not having 5 or w/e units of elves. elven cavalry isnt necessary either, cool, but not necessary
hobbits........early game pests. I think they should be removed to inns/powers b/c u know.......they only helped out once, and even
though in the right hands they could cause immense dmg in early game, they arent really in the arnor base army.
I forgot about Cirdan sending elves from Mithlond. So elves should stay in with them, and also, I think trebuchets should be replaced for arnor.
Arnor should have something better than trebuchets, an awesome siege weapon. I'm thinking some kind of uber numenorien machine that shoots
out hundreds of arrows at once, something like that. It's just an idea, so save the shouts people.
And remember, dojob, there's always that inn that could produce diff. elves u know....i
What i want to see from arnor is weak, basic pikes( men)
steelbowman(elite archer)
basic archers and swords same
Elite awesome uber-powered UNGONDORIENLIKE swordsmen that can kick ass everywhere thats not a mhh but an elite group.
Call it maybe Numenor Blademasters, the remnants of the great kingdom that fight with intense skill like the men of old.
For elves, i think the units should be all mithlond archers, and spears of the havens should be limited. WOuld be gay to have basic pikes and elite pikes and elite bows and elite swordsmen. IMO, the steelbowmen limited too, but not as strong as a mhh. As for swordsmen, keep them at 3 limited, but uber dmg, stronger than those damn elf mhh's.
I've just thought of a new power for them as well. I suggest a power called "Remnants of Numenor", a 15 or 25 pp power. It summons two battalions of Numenorien Blademasters (elite swords), and two battallions of steelbowmen, and Elendil/isildur/anarion (W/e is there for the LA missions which come up soon i hear!!).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In other words, this sums up what I would like to see. I know I could put more effort and organize it a little but meh, im lazy.

[Dunedain Lord]

And actually, the istari arent in arnor.
its a power?

[Eärendur]

Mabe instead of the militia, there could be a unit called something like "Arnor Sentinels" that could be a weak early-game unit that can toggle between swords, bows, and pikes, but deals very minimal damage and has very low armor. But you then add three new upgrades (either to the Barracks or Blacksmith, or both) that are called "Archer Specialization" , "Swordsman Specialization", and "Spearman Specialization" (or something like that). Once you buy the upgrade at either the Barracks or Blacksmith you can then give the Arnor Sentinels only one of those upgrades which causes the horde to lose the toggle ability and increases their armor a little, and turns them into an Archer, Pikeman, or Swordsman horde respectively.

[Uruk King]

That sounds like an interesting idea, it would certainly add a new level of depth into the faction, but they're still basically what the Arnor militia would be, weak early-game units with minimal armour and damage.

Also, when it comes to Elves in Arnor, I was never against Elves going out of the faction, olnly reducing their role in the faction slightly, just to make their presence in the game optional, not practically mandatory. But not limited in numbers. The problem that stands with the current Arnor is that there is too much dependence on Elves and Rangers, when Arnor was quite capable of holding back the hordes of Angmar by itself, depending on the strength of their foes. This argument has been about making Arnor unique from it's sister kingdom Gondor. How do you get it so that it's possible to go through a battle as Arnor without Elves, yet it's possible to make use of them if you beleive they are needed?

I just beleive the mod team hasn't quite realized the full potential of the Dunedain of Arnor to leave the faction as it is, or leave enough strategic options concerning the core faction units.

And spamming Hobbits doesn't work for me either because, it sounds just to evil, conscripting hundreds of lives to fight for your cause, only to dismiss their lives in total as they perish on the field. Pardon my moralistic terms, but I'm trying to point out that theat's what the Forces of Evil do in war, they have no moralities or value for the lives of their soldiers.

[dojob]

And actually, the istari arent in arnor.
its a power?

Yeah, but you need the alliance to make the power worthwhile; I'm just saying that Arnor's dependence on its allies gives it a nice style and unique gameplay, which is why I'm against weakening or limiting any of those alliances in any way.

Mabe instead of the militia, there could be a unit called something like "Arnor Sentinels" that could be a weak early-game unit that can toggle between swords, bows, and pikes, but deals very minimal damage and has very low armor. But you then add three new upgrades (either to the Barracks or Blacksmith, or both) that are called "Archer Specialization" , "Swordsman Specialization", and "Spearman Specialization" (or something like that). Once you buy the upgrade at either the Barracks or Blacksmith you can then give the Arnor Sentinels only one of those upgrades which causes the horde to lose the toggle ability and increases their armor a little, and turns them into an Archer, Pikeman, or Swordsman horde respectively.

Sounds ok to me

Also, when it comes to Elves in Arnor, I was never against Elves going out of the faction, olnly reducing their role in the faction slightly, just to make their presence in the game optional, not practically mandatory. But not limited in numbers. The problem that stands with the current Arnor is that there is too much dependence on Elves and Rangers, when Arnor was quite capable of holding back the hordes of Angmar by itself, depending on the strength of their foes. This argument has been about making Arnor unique from it's sister kingdom Gondor. How do you get it so that it's possible to go through a battle as Arnor without Elves, yet it's possible to make use of them if you beleive they are needed?

By leaving Hobbits, Elves, and Dunedain unchanged but also adding more elite Arnor units, so that Arnor provides your most basic and most elite units, but the alliances provide everything in between and fill special, situational niches.

The way I see it, you wouldn't be able to play as Arnor without getting Arnor units and having them be the core of your army, but you'd also need at least one ally to help out, depending on your strategy and what the enemy's gonna do; if you're expecting a cav rush, then you'll need lots of Hobbit pitchforks to hold them off. If he's archer-spamming or getting lots of siege, then you'd have to go for the Elves for their cavalry and armored pikemen. If you yourself are using lots of archers, then u'd need to go for the Dunedain to get fire arrows and better archers.


ATM, most people soldier/archer-spam in the beginning and then their forces are made up of almost nothing but Elves and Dunedain by the late game, but by adding more elite units to Arnor, it becomes a core, central part of the faction that has units to fill most roles and be the center of the faction, but needs allies to fill certain niches; you couldn't rely on elite pikes, soldiers, or steelbowmen alone because they're too few, but you also couldn't do without at least one kind of those elites, while you're not always going to need Hobbits, Elves, or Dunedain.

For the elites, I'd like to see them all (soldiers, pikes, and archers) be mhh, and have them all be limited to 2, but share the same limit so that you could go for either 2 steelbowmen hordes, 1 steelbowmen and 1 pike horde, 2 soldier hordes, 1 soldier and 1 steelbowmen horde, etc etc. That way you could have all of these units be mhh while still having the flexibility of which ones to get.

[Dunedain Lord]

why wuld any1 in the right mind spam d-soldiers and archers in the beginning. To me, making a baraks is pointless
if i was playing a game with no mhh.
But that's not the point.
Well, I'm still against that many elves in the faction. Just b/c ppl dont think arnor and gondor should be so alike, they are not.
Like I said before, one could be made greatly out of strong infantry(Gondor)
The other strong bows, swords, and pikes(Arnor)
And they arent really the same, one has cooler armor, and the other........has worse looking armor.
Also, I think the power of the Istari, now that I think of it, is kinda op. I just played a guy for MEC today, and using that one power
won me the whole game. With just the five of them, using all of their powers, the base and fortress were destroyed. Not even earthquake or army of the dead can do that. Sure earthquake can do alot of crap, but destroy a whole army and fortress? Insane...........
I agree with dojob on the elites for arnor, and I like Earendur's idea too. Concerning hobbits, however, I belive they should be totally whiped out, and stuck in an inn or just a power. And if anything, they should be hobbit archers, not pitchforks or regular hobbits. I dont think this mod has hobbit archers so...............they culd stick with the other hobbit unit types.
I think that there should be a new unit as well: Dunedain Scouts or Arnor's eyes or w/e. It should be a lightly armed cavalry unit that moves very swiftly with high hitpoints for scouring the whole map.
These are all my opinions, and my lore is hell not good so bear with me.

[{IRS}Athos]

@ Dunedain Lord: I beg to differ on the subject of the barracks. I took on three Hard Angmars with nothing but those basic units and a couple of heroes. During that same skirmish, I summoned the Istari, who were hit for a home-run by the Sauron of the last base I attacked. *And Arveleg was frozen in place during his palantir-smash, and ended up dying before he could do anything... I though Soul Freeze made you immune to damage...* Anyway, the Istari are fine how they are. And the hobbits should stay... although you do bear a valid point with the archers. The scouts may work out as well... sort of like those Yeomen Scouts.

[Gr1m]

Mabe instead of the militia, there could be a unit called something like "Arnor Sentinels" that could be a weak early-game unit that can toggle between swords, bows, and pikes, but deals very minimal damage and has very low armor. But you then add three new upgrades (either to the Barracks or Blacksmith, or both) that are called "Archer Specialization" , "Swordsman Specialization", and "Spearman Specialization" (or something like that). Once you buy the upgrade at either the Barracks or Blacksmith you can then give the Arnor Sentinels only one of those upgrades which causes the horde to lose the toggle ability and increases their armor a little, and turns them into an Archer, Pikeman, or Swordsman horde respectively.

I really like this idea a lot. It gives Arnor a lot of flexibility in fielding their armies early and even into mid-game, allowing them to quickly field specialized forces against any one threat, and makes gameplay for them quite unique - their force would consist largely of these weaker generic forces with more expensive forces used to bolster staying power in the line.

As for the allies reinforcements - I've personally got no problem with them, but the Elves aspect needs to be really fixed up, imo. They're a great idea, but they just don't really flow with the whole look of Arnor at this stage, especially the Elven building. Reduce their role, revise the look and units, and it'll be great. Maybe up the cost as well? I feel that the Elves for Arnor are a little too...accessible. Realistically they did have to travel some fair distances to come to the aid of Arnor, and they are Elves after all, so they should be the kind of unit that makes you think before you recruit them as to whether the cost and even the type of unit you're buying is worth the resource cost.

[{IRS}Athos]

Actually, the elves lived only a few miles from the borders of Arthedain. They were the elves of Mithlond... I played as Arnor on Mithlond and I must say that the elven barracks fits well there, so it's logical that the design would be kept.

[Dunedain Lord]

Too true, but what about rivendell riders? Imladris captain? Unless you want to change the name, they should be dismissed.