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#881 Captain of Arnor

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 05:26 PM

Mm, I don't personally count spies as treachery, but if the spies go in (like Wormtongue) and plant the seeds of dissension among the men and Kings (much like Sauron did with Al-Pharazon in Numenor, seducing him into attacking the Valar and, therefore, breaking the Ban of the Valar) yeah, thats treachery. And a wise move. But I personally would've moved up around Annuminas if it was me, and attacked from the north, west and east. Harrying an enemy from all sides is demoralizing, taunting the enemies lack of strength, and it spreads your enemies forces thin when they try to defend every corner.

Here's a new tech tree, of I guess what you guys are thinking so far?

Hall of the Kings Men -


Level I - Thrall Master. (Keeps all units)

Level II - Men of Carn-Dum / Soldiers of Carn-Dum / Swordsmen of Carn-Dum (Early to mid-game swordsmen units)

Level II - Archers of Carn-Dum. (Just basic unit archers. You know how it goes.)

Level II - Banner Carrier upgrade.

Level III - Angmar Rangers. (Elite Ranged units. Yeah, lots of units from this building.)

Level III- Dark Numenoreans. (Elite unit for Angmar. Only get five units in this horde, limited to three hordes in all. This is just because I really don't feel like Dark Numenoreans should be fully removed. I do think, now, that they SHOULD be limited, however.)



Wolf Den -


Level I- Wolf Pack. (Dire wolves. Same thing.)

Level II- Spiked Collars. (Maybe some type of Wolf Riding unit or something?)

Level III- Werewolves. (Limited units, three hordes at a time, each horde with...three units? Maybe?)


Temple of Twilight -


Level I - Sorcerer. (Once again, if these are even kept, limited hordes.)

Level II - (All of the stupid Sorcerer upgrades.)

Level III - Vampires. (You guys could do this however you want. I never even build a Temple of Twilight anyways.)


Stables of the Kings Men -


Level I- Knights of Carn-Dum. (Yep. Just mounted swordsmen, you know how it goes.)

Level II- (I proposed Mounted Rangers here, but that idea was met with hostility and rage. XD So I'm not sure this building should even be kept. But if it is, what could be the level two unit / upgrade..? Horse Shields? No clue...)

Level III- (I suppose this could be open to discussion. I would say add a mounted elite unit here, but that could be a bit suggestive. But then again, most factions do have mounted elite units as well as infantry, so...who knows?)


Dark Iron Forge -


(Same stuff.)

Edited by Lord_Faramir, 19 March 2009 - 05:33 PM.

'The Twilight of Man is nigh, and coming ever closer. The days have shortened into cold, forlorn darkness and sunrise to sundown is a bitter struggle for survival. But do not think for a moment that we shall not fight. We shall not go quietly into the dusk. We shall not throw down arms and flee, or surrender. We will go on, we will not falter. And even should we die, we shall make an end that will be remembered for thousands of years. For beautiful Arnor that is, for glorious Númenor that was! We are the Dúnedain, we are the Men of the North, and our foes will remember our steel!'

Formerly Lord_Faramir.

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#882 Wanderer∞

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 06:22 PM

It's better than the first one! But I have a few suggestions/comments.
-The werewolves should be limited like you said but be single units.
-Perhaps the mounted rangers could just be made into a upgrade that allows your knights to toggle weapons.
-Where are the trolls?!?? :shiftee:

You can't have a young Mouth of Sauron. He is really old. So old nobody remembers his name not even him. His life is sustained directly from the dark evil of Morgoth and his lieutenant Sauron. Just as the Nazgul have lived since the second age as Ulairi. So the mouth of Sauron is somehow kept alive. It is unknown the full extent and power of the dark Master and the black faith.

So why couldn't there be the possibility of him as a Angmar hero? I could care less either way, but the logic of the statement confused me :good:

As for my list on lore... I'll just edit it a bit

Edited by Wanderer∞, 19 March 2009 - 06:30 PM.

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#883 {IP} Aridor

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 07:05 PM

Splitting your forces only works when you vastly outnumber your enemy or have a great technological advantage. The WK never had either until the end and even then the forces of Gondor crushed him with easy though they came to late. If he had moved on Arnor united that early in force he would have to dealt with the combined united and determined forces of Arnor, and Gondor would have come to their aid swiftly. It may in fact have brought the two kingdoms closer together and united them tightly. Which the dark lord would want avoided at all cost. Evil defeats us by dividing us. That is why the WK began a slow campaign to split them apart and bleed them dry. Gondor was the greater threat to Sauron but to defeat it first he began picking of their allies. Though things happened in unexpected ways to the benefit of good. Such as the sudden alliance and appearance of the Riddermark. His chief goal of course at all times was to destroy the Elves and take their rings but he had to take out Gondor first, and also those pesky Dwarves, who wouldn't seem to die even though two of their homes had been destroyed. In conclusion I would agree to your tactic, which is what the dark lord did overall but for Angmar itself it wasn't a good option.

Your list is pretty decent but it sort of makes them into a Gondor clone.

I would suggest the following:

Units:

Infantry:
Brigands: Real weak raiding and scout unit. Good only against reasource buildings and decent against other buildings. They steal resources as they hurt structures.

Wildmen of Rhudar: A horde of un-armored and club wielding wildmen, you can choose three upgrades for them, pikes, axes, and bows. Pikes being your basic pike unit, axe is good against buildings and infantry, and bows is a very basic ranged unit. Axe throwers go by-by b/c they are extremely unrealistic. This gives the the versatility of the Thrall masters without the annoying suddenly popping into being units and the disorganized choice of units.

Thrall Master: Leadership buff guy. Like a troll drummer.

Gundabad Orcs: A moltly group of varied orcs. They have pikes, swords, axes, clubs, and random weapons of death. They are really balanced. Not bad against anything but not good against anything. They can be upgraded with FB and HA.

Men of Carn Dum (Men of Angmar, whatever works): Heavy anti-infantry spear men. They hold a shield and short spear. They are not good against cav, but destroy Infantry without taking much damage.

Arnor Traitors: Heavy Toggle infantry. These are traitors of Arnor that now fight for the WK. They come HA and are mostly used as archers behind the lines, b/c traitors are cowards and don't want to risk fighting.

Cavalry:

Dire Wolves: Raiding wolves. Good at causing fear with their howl.

Black Wargs: Slightly better raiding wolves. Much more powerful fear inducing howl.

Warg Riders: Warg riders. Why Wargs? B/c it is physically impossible to ride the wolves as they are normal. You would break their back.

White Wolves: Elite dire wolves with pure white fur. The WK's special pets. They are excellent at inducing fear and chaos in the enemy.

Wild horsemen: Rhudar wildmen on horses. The wield axes and are great for raiding.

Monsters:

Troll: Random type of troll, either mountain, hill, or cave troll. They can be equipped with weapons when they level up.

Barrow Wright: These are fell spirits that the WK commands. They can inhabit dead corpses to increase their ability to attack but also makes them more vulnerable.

Vampire: A large bat like creature that swoops down on units and devours them. Good for scouting. When at lvl 5 they gain a power that lets them latch on a unit until it is dead. They can't let go though so surrounding units can attack it. But sucking a man dry like this causes immense terror so only ranged units could attack. They cause fear as they fly overhead, and when they get higher they get an small escort of normal bats that ups their terror.

Werewolf: A dark spirit inhabiting the the body of a walking wolf like creature. They have deafening and terrifying howl which is uttered before they go into battle. They then go in blood craze and tear into the enemy. The kill all around them so they are best sent alone as beserkers.

Single Units:

Spies: Used for spying on the enemy and disrupting his resource and unit flow. Stealth, resource steal, and damage building are all in his bag of tricks. An advanced agent of the WK will even be able bribe units away.

Assassin: A single use unit that has only extrememly powerful kill power. Used to kill the leaders of the enemies of WK. The enemy armies are nothing without their leaders.

Black Numenorian (Just b/c ppl insist, but he is going to be more cannon that other BN.): A dark and twisted man. He has spent many years studying the black arts and has sold himself to the dark lord and pledged to fight for Morgoth's ends. He worships the darkness. Extremely few in numbers most live in the far south, but a few went north with the WK and now provide dark magic for him. They stand behind his forces uttering dark spells and incantations. Calling upon fell spirits and blackness they send terror, doubt, sickness, and confusion in to their foes. Though if attacked they can wield the double handed swords with deadly effect. These blades are cursed and poisoned Morgul blades. These rare men are a dark terror to the forces of good and are know only in rumor. (So basically you set them behind your lines and they start chanting which debuffs your enemies. When attacked their swords do poison damage and the victim turns into a wright)

Stone Throwers: Same old.

Buildings:

Rhudar Grog Hall: Lvl I:Brigands and Rhudar Hillmen
Lvl II:Rhudar Horsemen.
Lvl III: Thrall Master.

Carn-Dum Garrison: Lvl I: Gundabad Orcs, Spies
Lvl II: Men of Carn Dum, Assassins
Lvl III: Arnor Traitors

Wolf Den: Lvl I: Wolves, Wargs.
Lvl II: Warg riders
Lvl III: White Wolves

Dungeon: Lvl I: Trolls
Lvl II: Vampires, Barrow Wrights.
Lvl III: Werewolves, Black Numenorians.

Dark Iron Forge: Same old same old.

I'll get some concept art up soon of my buildings and units.


At Wanderer: I was commenting on the young part. But he also would have either been with Sauron in Dol-Guldur or out east of south

Edited by AA IP'er, 19 March 2009 - 07:06 PM.


#884 shadowcreature

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 07:06 PM

This idea may be too combining of Angmar's support forces imo, but what about renaming the Wolf Den into the Beast Den or Beast Pit? Level 1 could provide the Wolves and maybe a higher tier Orc unit, not the crap Thrall Orcs though. Level 2 could maybe sport some kind of Troll or Trolls, and Level 3 have the counter infantry unit, but what species I don't know which would be best.

#885 Captain of Arnor

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 11:13 PM

Well, in my eyes, Angmar is getting stuck with a lot of limited-number hordes now. It'll really require the Men of Carn-Dum and the other unlimited units to be pretty powerful, in compensation.

'The Twilight of Man is nigh, and coming ever closer. The days have shortened into cold, forlorn darkness and sunrise to sundown is a bitter struggle for survival. But do not think for a moment that we shall not fight. We shall not go quietly into the dusk. We shall not throw down arms and flee, or surrender. We will go on, we will not falter. And even should we die, we shall make an end that will be remembered for thousands of years. For beautiful Arnor that is, for glorious Númenor that was! We are the Dúnedain, we are the Men of the North, and our foes will remember our steel!'

Formerly Lord_Faramir.

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#886 dojob

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 12:27 AM

Except for the maniac who fast-techs to temples and wreaks havoc with a mass of vampires...
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#887 {IP} Aridor

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 01:40 AM

We would put in stuff to stop massing them and tech rushing them. Plus they would suck without support. Some form of level up system where you can't unlock the Dungeon until you get like a power or an upgrade at another building at like level 3. Something like that. They are supposed to be really rare. The main brunt of the army would Rhudar Hillmen, Orcs, Men of Carn Dum, and wolves.

#888 Captain of Arnor

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 01:52 AM

Good. Thats what I want to hear, not people rushing vampires and werewolves. :D This is turning out better than I figured it would. One thing I do like though, is the Thrall Master system. Are you guys planning on doing away with that?

Edited by Lord_Faramir, 20 March 2009 - 01:52 AM.

'The Twilight of Man is nigh, and coming ever closer. The days have shortened into cold, forlorn darkness and sunrise to sundown is a bitter struggle for survival. But do not think for a moment that we shall not fight. We shall not go quietly into the dusk. We shall not throw down arms and flee, or surrender. We will go on, we will not falter. And even should we die, we shall make an end that will be remembered for thousands of years. For beautiful Arnor that is, for glorious Númenor that was! We are the Dúnedain, we are the Men of the North, and our foes will remember our steel!'

Formerly Lord_Faramir.

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#889 Morgulshade

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 02:11 AM

-The early Mouth of Sauron version was my idea, im glad you liked because it really fits.
-The werewolves as single units (troll-like) is a great idea also, but I still think making a Hero gives them (or it) more importance. (You can use the model theyr making for the single unit, and reskin and resize the angmar ice wolf for the hero...trust me it would be really cool...more than spamming werewolves, having just one)
-Vampires should be made like a single horde of three units, using for exploring purposes or just to harass infantry or cavalry.

Peace

#890 Uruk King

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 06:56 AM

Now this is the kind of techtree I'd want to see, bravo! :)
I will remember Rhovanion Alliance, RIP .

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#891 Dragonforce

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 12:33 PM

Limited units is good way to cut off rush-tactics
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#892 {IP} Aridor

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 12:50 PM

Thanks. I'd really think it gets the theme of Angmar across. Almost as if you can win without fighting. Which is what they did most of the time. I am going to make some concept art tonight and post it.

#893 Captain of Arnor

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 04:34 PM

AA, you're still missing the Temple of Twilight, which I figure would be the best place to put the Vampires and Wights. We agreed to keep sorcerers, just in limited hordes, no?

Dragonforce, I wouldn't say that. Most limited hordes come in conjunction with a level three building. And a lot of people can start using rush tactics before you even get a level two building. So actually, I'd think it was the other way around. Now, if some / most of the limited hordes were purchasable level one / two buildings, that would be a different story.

And I'll agree with anything, so long as the Men of Carn-Dum are in and are useful units, and Black Numenoreans are included as a limited elite horde. :D

'The Twilight of Man is nigh, and coming ever closer. The days have shortened into cold, forlorn darkness and sunrise to sundown is a bitter struggle for survival. But do not think for a moment that we shall not fight. We shall not go quietly into the dusk. We shall not throw down arms and flee, or surrender. We will go on, we will not falter. And even should we die, we shall make an end that will be remembered for thousands of years. For beautiful Arnor that is, for glorious Númenor that was! We are the Dúnedain, we are the Men of the North, and our foes will remember our steel!'

Formerly Lord_Faramir.

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#894 Dunedain Lord

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 04:50 PM

Why should Black Numenoriens be limited to 3 hordes? Were they that few in number?
No..........I'm pretty sure they were not.
Keeping them just as elites works fine, and they werent like the "hero hordes" of Angmar.
I think the trolls were, trolls like rogash (fake) and hill trolls and snow trolls that could get beefed up alot.
And the size of a single horde for angmar should be increased for the hillmen and men of carndum and other
basic units. Angmar won in size, not strength
Edit: I also suggest that they have wights that walk faster? Like Karsh? Or there is really no point

Edited by Dunedain Lord, 20 March 2009 - 04:51 PM.

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#895 {IP} Aridor

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 04:59 PM

Umm yes they were that rare. In fact there is only ever one named. The mouth of Sauron. I think you are confusing Black Numenorean with Upspurers under Castimir during the Kin Strife

I intentionally left out the Temple. It would get turned into the Dungeon. Much more in keeping with general theme, lore, and what-not. If you notice carefully the BNs take over for the Sorcerers. The only magic humans can use is Morgul. The humans that can use it are rare, and most were the BNs. They are a single unit that provides enemy debuffs and what not. Because spells like the vanilla sorcerers have don't exist in Middle Earth, at least for men. But they can summon dread spirits and cast fear into their foes. Black Numenoreans were not so much fighters as they were magicians. The putrid evil of Morgul is what drew them to sell themselves to Sauron and follow the ways of the Dark Lord Morgoth.

Edited by AA IP'er, 20 March 2009 - 05:06 PM.


#896 Wanderer∞

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 05:03 PM

And the Witch-King! :good:
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#897 {IP} Aridor

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 05:08 PM

Except all the ones we know of went east and south, far in-land. Having them with the WK is just pure conjecture. I personally wouldn't want them in, but a lot of people are die hard fans of both BN and sorcerers so I tried as best I could to combine them both to make them slightly lore realistic.

#898 Wanderer∞

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 06:32 PM

Sorry, I meant the WK was a BN too, in response to the Mouth of Sauron statement

Edited by Wanderer∞, 20 March 2009 - 06:32 PM.

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#899 dojob

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 07:31 PM

Good. Thats what I want to hear, not people rushing vampires and werewolves. :good: This is turning out better than I figured it would. One thing I do like though, is the Thrall Master system. Are you guys planning on doing away with that?


Limited units is good way to cut off rush-tactics


...

What is so wrong with people rushing? It's a legitimate strategy that's counterable and if ur losing to rushes, then you just need to prepare better and learn to adapt to it. Rushing makes games enjoyable, fun and intense and if u don't like it then go play SEE or set up your games with "No Rush 10 mins" rules or something.

And why shouldn't I be able to fast-tech to vampires, or other factions' fast-attack units like cavalry? Artificial limits (the "you can only have 3 of such-and-such unit" kind") do nothing but leave people very little room for creativity and I think even you would end up trying something other than manspam at one point or another because it would just get boring after a while.

The thing about factions in RTS games is that there absolutely needs to diversity, flexibility, and freedom, even within individual factions or else the gameplay will just predictable and you'll see the same openings and strategies over and over and over again until it just becomes shallow and monotonous.

I'm not saying that monsters should be spammable, but I think that merely adding a little expense (about 1000 resources for both vampires and werewolves, more or less), weakening their armor, and keeping them at high-tier buildings will keep people from getting nothing but them.

If a person just fast-teched to vampires as I said with my Angmar faction, then they'd have very few units in the early game because they're spending so much money on mid-game buildings and teching up and a person could just rush their base with a good force and take them out before they have enough vampires to do anything about it. Or, if they're too late, then they can just make a bunch of archers and then their problem is solved.

THAT should be the way to limit monsters: make overusing them be counterable so Angmar players have to rely on other units to take out archers and hold off enemy rush units. You don't need to lock people in creative boxes to keep people from abusing units, that's what the counter system is for, but if I'm able to get a bunch of vampires and I can make the best of them, then I should be able to do so and not have the game dictate my strategies for me.

As for thralls, it is too good a system to let go of, imo and I'm glad we can agree on keeping them in.
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#900 {IP} Aridor

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 07:34 PM

I would have the Thralls modified to just summon Hillmen. I would actually like to see you train a unit of hillmen and then choose what weapon to equip them with.

I would want the Vampires to have a more supporting role. They wouldn't be able to do on their own since their real kill power would come from the latching on and sucking them dry power, which makes them really vulnerable to archers.




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