1109 replies to this topic

[Captain of Arnor]

Man, if vampires end up in Angmar I'm going to be so upset. Because in everything I've ever read about Angmar and Arnor, vampires were never one single time ever mentioned as one of the hordes of the North, outside of the time of Morgoth and Angbad. If someone could show me proof that there were vampires in Angmar, it would be a very different matter, but I'm very strongly opposed to the thought of vampires and werewolves in this game.

The Witch-king himself was the cloud of terror, in my eyes. Angmar is a creepy faction, not because of...vampires...or because of werewolves, but because it was the unknown. It was the opposite of everything that was good. While Arnor and Gondor were like the sun, all happy and warm and noble, Angmar was like the moon, icy cold and cruel and evil.

Black Numenoreans should, no matter what anyone says, stay in in some form. A hero, or the elite units, I'll always say this. Because there were small, isolated colonies of Black Numenoreans in the north after Saurons defeat. They scattered to the winds. That much I have read. I don't remember where, but I know without a shadow of doubt I did read it.

In my eyes, Angmar should be a faction of the Men of Carn-Dum and Hill Men supported by trolls and wolves, and wights. And it has to be done (which at this point, it obviously is, to keep people entertained) supported by werewolves and/or vampires as well. Even though I'm still very strongly opposed to this, and will always be.

[Dalf32]

you say prove that they were ever in angmar, i say prove to me that they never were. its a two-way street here, and until someone finds something difinitive, no one is right.

im not against black numenoriens being in angmar, i just dont think they should be the main infantry unit. they were not large enough in number imo, and as such should be an elite unit.

[mike_]

In all honesty Black Numenoreans are less canon in Angmar than Vampires as we're (me, AA, dojob etc) imagining them.




Thank you, thank you. The Lore-master has spoken.


EDIT:

Edited by mike_, 17 March 2009 - 10:38 PM.

[Captain of Arnor]

I agree with what you say about Black Numenoreans, honestly. There weren't enough of them left after Saurons defeat to make an army of, either way. But there should be some as elite units (because thats what they were. They were epic.)

There is no way to prove that Vampires weren't in Angmar, but Tolkien himself only ever mentions them twice. Once to describe when Sauron became a vampire to flee Huan, and once to describe Saurons servant Thuringwethil. They're obviously not numerable. I would think that after Morgoths trip to the void, they went the way of the Black Numenoreans and were wiped out.

Edited by Lord_Faramir, 17 March 2009 - 10:41 PM.

[Neth]

I agree with the fear inspiring ideas AA came up with too. Angmar seems to me like it should be most like Angbad.

Edited by Nethelen Narcu, 17 March 2009 - 10:49 PM.

[Morgulshade]

Well vampires are not that numerous but werewolves were...Anyway, as I said, adding them as a unit would be crazy, cause they could be spammed and then they would lose their style. On the contrary, as a hero/s it/they would be much more interesting.

[mike_]

Yeah. Which is why I suggested Vampires and Were-wolves (out of Forochel, the frozen North around the ruins of Angband and Utumno) in a limited capacity looooooooooooong ago

[Morgulshade]

hehe yeah, they could be elite units or....Heroes! lol

[Devon]

you say prove that they were ever in angmar, i say prove to me that they never were. its a two-way street here, and until someone finds something difinitive, no one is right.

Tolkien never said elves didn't wear bikinis and wield machine guns. He never said haradhrim didn't throw grenades off of mumakil. He never said that batman didn't exist and help protect Mirkwood from Lex Luther and the Joker...





But yeah, it wouldn't be a traditional vampire. It would be more of an ancestor of the fellbeast.

[Lord of Mordor]

In all honesty Black Numenoreans are less canon in Angmar than Vampires as we're (me, AA, dojob etc) imagining them.

And why would that be? Now, I know Black Numenoreans are not canon at all. What they are is servants of Evil that are proven to have existed, but without any evidence of them ever being in Angmar. And that is exactly what Werewolves and Vampires are as well. Just because some people like one over the other doesn't mean any of them is more canon. Canon is Hillmen, Wights and probably Orcs, because every evil faction has those. Everything else is up to our imagination.

(Personally, I find them both monsters and BN awesome, but that's another matter entirely ^^)

Plus, what Yoda said

[Dalf32]

well yoda, my statement was in reference to something that isnt utterly absurd. so i bite my thumb at thee

im thinking vampires should be relatively limited in angmar. i certainly dont want to see them becoming a highly spammable unit. but i think they need to be there nonetheless.

[mike_]

I think having like two as early-game scouts would suffice.

[Devon]

There's no need to scout in bfme

[mike_]

Not in BFME: Zerg Edition Rise of the Witch-king, no..

[Captain of Arnor]

I just don't want to see Angmar become another petting zoo. Please, please don't do that. >.>; I want Angmar to be, basically, like this.

If I go play Angmar right now, I can field a massive army without using one single monster unit. I can make hordes of thrall masters with their hordes, I can make Black Numenorean soldiers, I can make dark rangers and destroy an enemy just with an army of those. No trolls (I HATE the trolls in Angmar) no wolves. (Some wolf riders, yeah, sometimes.)

Angmars army was described as mostly evil men, even in the books. Men of Rhudaur and of the frozen north laid waste to Arnor. They were 'supported' by some monster units. But men were, are, and most definitely should be the backbone for every army in the Angmar faction. This is what I think, personally.

And really, I don't want to see vampires and werewolves in mainly because they'll be hugely overpowered in every sense of the word. No matter how you look at it, you HAVE to make them hard to kill and that will take the fun out of it.

[Morgulshade]

Not really...if the vampires are scouting units, they wouldn't need to be tough, just fast. Some arrows should own them IMO.
And werewolves well....yes they need to be tough, thats why I think that it should be...hmm what was it...A HEROE
Lol

EDIT: something Rogash like but different.

Edited by Morgulshade, 18 March 2009 - 12:09 AM.

[dojob]

I just don't want to see Angmar become another petting zoo. Please, please don't do that. >.>; I want Angmar to be, basically, like this.

If I go play Angmar right now, I can field a massive army without using one single monster unit. I can make hordes of thrall masters with their hordes, I can make Black Numenorean soldiers, I can make dark rangers and destroy an enemy just with an army of those. No trolls (I HATE the trolls in Angmar) no wolves. (Some wolf riders, yeah, sometimes.)

Angmars army was described as mostly evil men, even in the books. Men of Rhudaur and of the frozen north laid waste to Arnor. They were 'supported' by some monster units. But men were, are, and most definitely should be the backbone for every army in the Angmar faction. This is what I think, personally.

And really, I don't want to see vampires and werewolves in mainly because they'll be hugely overpowered in every sense of the word. No matter how you look at it, you HAVE to make them hard to kill and that will take the fun out of it.

What Ringy meant by u making Angmar into another Gondor is that ur unit choices are, tbh, bland; I mean, sword infantry coming out of an infantry building, archers from the archery range, cav from the stables, it's too conventional and takes away from Gondor's uniqueness as the basic faction and the all-around faction. Either Angmar would end up overshadowing Gondor or vice versa, and u'd end up with a role/style confliction that's just bad for the game, imo.

But, you can still have a faction that makes heavy usage of evil men and make it unique; that's why I loved Mike's idea for a faction and based my own tech tree on it. Keeping (reletively, at least) close to the lore, my/mike's faction still has a whole building with enough evil men units to have no need for pits, dens, or temples; you've got spearmen, swordsmen, archers, and late-game support covered, but the people who want more than that have the option and can add tons of support units to terrorize their enemies or overwhelm them with spam, brute force, or speed.

And no, vampires and werewolves wouldn't be bad for balance unless u mess up the stats; there's no reason to say that they would be. The way I see it, vampires would be a lesser version of nazguls/fellbeasts; they'd fly around messing up formations and scaring enemy troops, and probably cost around 500-1000 resources, but you could EASILY balance them out by making them even more vulnerable to archers than nazguls are and keeping them from picking up enemies and dropping them to their deaths. And there you have it, a unit that can really mess with the enemy, but needs to be used carefully or else they'll die easily. It would be great for micro and gameplay.

As for werewolves, they too wouldn't be that hard to kill either because they'd fight just like trolls, except that they'd be weaker and faster and maybe have an ability or two.

I don't see why you want so much to get rid of monsters and change a faction's gameplay you can just take a faction (like the current Angmar as u said), and simply buy the units that you think are true to lore and not buy the ones that you don't like.

[Captain of Arnor]

Thrall masters need to be kept in this game, and in the faction. The idea of a building made specially for creating barbarian hordes free of a thrall master is not a good one to me.

And I don't have as much of a problem with monsters as I do with monsters taking away from the factions dependence on Men as the backbone of its army. In supporting roles, alright, thats cool. But I don't like the idea of every unit in an army being a troll or a werewolf or something like that.

Edited by Lord_Faramir, 18 March 2009 - 03:28 AM.

[Uruk King]

Why do we keep forgetting that Orcs were a major part of Angmar's forces, if not the backbone of the armies. They should play a large role, almost as large a part as men really. The Carn Dum men were the more disciplined warriors

Edited by Uruk King, 18 March 2009 - 07:04 AM.

[{IP} Aridor]

Vampires are actually cannon. BN are not. Werewolves may or may not be. Vampires are just really large bats that are inhabited by a fell spirit. Like a bat version of a warg. There were Were Vampires with the Goblins at the battle of the five armies. The Werewolves though could be there and they might not. There is no reason that they wouldn't be there. The WK had the power to send fell spirits into the Barrows then he certainly had the power of bringing Werewolves back. He was very fond of wolves. The were a huge problem. Actually if there is anything that Angmar would be known by it would be the wolves and wargs he sent south. Even after he was gone they continued to cause a problem.

At Dalf: Glad you liked my idea for Angmar. Fear and treachery was how the WK won and we need to reflect this somehow in the game.