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#441 Rafv Nin IV

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 09:58 PM

I like the idea of the Far Harad mission led by Ji Indur (who, I am assuming, is the Haradrim Nazgul), but I'm not one of the lore-freaks, having only read the Silmarillion once :)

Although I have a hard time believing that all the Haradrim submitted to Sauron without any fight, so I think the mission would be a good one.

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#442 Devon

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 10:09 PM

Obviously, feel free to speculate :)

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#443 Scryer

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 11:14 PM

Yes feel free to rip my idea to shreds with criticism :) ! Sorry about my little explosion there, guys.

I think that Ji Indur leading an army to hire Harad would be the best choice out of all of the heroes that you could do it with. The rest of the problems that I mentioned, I am going to leave to the team to figure out ;) . I was also assuming that he was a Haradrim Ringwraith, can anyone confirm this :mad2: ?

For the "Capital City" thing, I was thinking that it would be a little like a reskinned Edoras. Reskinning Edoras would be somewhere to start, I would think. So long as it's desert-like and has a different design than Edoras, I think that it would be good. If it's possible, i would like to see an Oasis in the center of the city. Because Near Harad is purely a desert, I think that it would be nice to see a combination of a harsh desert-terrain and a tropical Oasis (complete with palm trees) in the capital. I don't know what everyone else thinks about this though..

Sorry I kind of like the capital of harad being a beautiful tropical Oasis in the middle of a harsh desert climate. Would be fun to defend in too, I guess... If you guys need any more inspiration for a Haradrim capital (if you wanted to implement one), I would recommend that you play "Assasin's Creed". They have some amazing environments (particularly cities) in hotter climates.
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#444 Devon

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 11:35 PM

Ungol walls would work best reskinned...but of course, I can't let out any secrets of what rob already has or doesn't have :)

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#445 mike_

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 12:08 AM

Hmm...would that be for War of the Ring or the Evil Campaign?

If for the Evil Campaign, I'll post my (and Yoda's :)) ideas below:

Right then...Yoda and I were talking on MSN, and kind of laid the foundations for a possible Evil Campaign, starting in Harad. I dunno if it's considered linear or nonlinear, so bare with me ;)
Harondor. The player starts with the Serpent Lord, a Campaign-only hero for Harad, and a few hordes of Haradrim. There are a few buildings under the player's control, but not many. Anyway, his first objective is to forge an alliance with the nearby tribes of Haradrim - the Serpent Lord's forces must make contact with three other small encampments in order to gain their trust. Once at least two tribes have been allied with, the Serpent Lord must set up an ambush for a Gondorian patrol coming through the area. Once his archers are in place, the enemy troops come through the area....and are, if the forces are positioned correctly, slain. Once this is done, the player should have enough resources to build a decently-sized force of Haradrim. The player then has to take control of the three Gondorian outposts on the map - two on raised hills, and a third, larger one in a valley between them. Once the first outpost falls, a timer starts until the point when Gondorian reinforcements arrive - the player must destroy the second outpost, and the third. A base needs to be set up, and defenses erected, before the reinforcements arrive. Once they are slain, the mission is over.
Near Harad. The player's control changes over to Mordor, and the player starts off with the Mouth of Sauron/Nazgul/an emissary of some sort, as well as several hordes of Orc Warriors and Archers. Basically, the BFME1 Mission - recruit the nearby Haradrim either through force or by tribute cart. Closes with a cutscene of the Mordor Hero and the Serpent Lord talking, the Haradrim leader under orders to "Make an army worthy of Mordor" in exchange for fertile lands in Gondor, and gold.
Karna. Karna is, according to Games Workshop, a large, sacred city of stone on the Near-Far Harad border (known as "central Harad" to some :mad2:). Anyway, the Serpent Lord makes his base of operations here. Throughout the Mission groups of Haradrim warriors come to join his cause. The Serpent Lord's forces must subjugate the surrounding tribes of Haradrim through force. The player can build several tribute carts for later.
Far Harad. Having amassed a large army of Haradrim, the Serpent Lord goes South to the jungles of Far Harad. He is trying to reach the main settlement of the Mahud, and so gain their alliance and access to their prized warriors. On his way through the winding jungle path, his column of marching Haradrim are attacked randomly by stealthed Mahud archers. Eventually the encampment is reached, and the Mahud Chieftan gives the Serpent Lord two options with which to gain their loyalty - by tribute, or by slaying the Mahud Chieftan in single combat. Once either of these is fulfilled, all Mahud units map-wide come under the player's control. Later on, two or three waves of Mahud Warriors unhappy with the power shift attack the settlement, and they must be slain or driven off. If the Mahud Chieftain was bought out, then the waves comprise of more warriors and the first is led by a rival, younger, Mahud Chieftan. If the first Chieftan is slain, then the new Chieftan arrives with his warriors to fight alongside the Serpent Lord as thanks for removing his rival. Together they fight against the waves of attackers, and after the enemies are defeated, the Mission is over.
Umbar. The player could have a choice between progressing to either Umbar or Far Harad after the Karna Mission - both would be completed over time, but it could be chosen which would be fought first. The Mission starts with the Serpent Lord and an escort of Haradrim riding through the city gates - the rest of his army encamped off of the map. They meet up with the Corsairs, and the Serpent Lord rallies them to fight for him - right before a large Gondorian fleet attacks the harbor. Leading the defense of the city-state, the Serpent Lord must fight back with several pre-built ships while building a large navy himself. A cool feature would be Corsair Boarders - a horde of roughly a dozen small ships, not more than skiffs, which can attack an enemy vessel and place it under the player's control. If this is possible code-wise, then an objective would be to capture a dozen enemy ships. Despite the player's efforts, several enemy transport ships would land within the city and send out Gondorian troops to wreak havoc until slain. Once the map is under the player's control, the Mission is over.
Dol Amroth. The Mission starts with the Serpent Lord leading a ground force comprised of Haradrim and Mahud warriors, Khandish mercenaries, and Mumakil. Where are the Corsairs, you ask? In the boats captured in the attack on Umbar. The player must ensure that they do not attack any enemy ships, and must get within the city of Dol Amroth. If they succeed, then the ships release multiple hordes of Corsairs, and they attack the city from the inside while the Serpent Lord lays siege from the outside. The Corsairs can be ordered to open the gate (codeable?) to the city and let the Serpent Lord's army inside.



#446 CIL

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 12:40 AM

If you want better graphics, set it on "high".

I feel I must say something about this. I have a computer that can handle very high detail. I set it on that but it doesn't get much better. The RJ skins are super high quality already, so those I don't care about, it's just the non-RJ ones that still (some of them) don't look quite right.
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#447 Scryer

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 12:50 AM

My idea would be for the evil player in the WOTR campaign (Non-linear, I believe?). It can be used for either. I'm going to give you feedback for the information that you provided me Mike. By he way, thanks for it! I thought that you would shake your finger at me for not including more lore in my other post :mad2: .

Harondor

I do like this idea. I can honestly say that I enjoy it. I had an idea for this map as well but I think that this one would be better to use for both campaigns. The essence of my idea was that Harad and Gondor had control over different halves of the map. And there would be map-wide walls for each side right across from each other. Your objective would have been to destroy Gondor's settlement. It would act like a toned down Osgiliath mission. But I like your idea better for both the Linear and LWM Evil Campaign.

Near Harad:

One thing that doesn't make sense to me (that EA did) was that they recruited the entire Haradrim faction in Near Harad. In my opinion if you're going to recruit someone, you would send your messenger to their capital so that your messenger goes straight to royalty right away. That's the only thing that bugs me about having a recruiting mission in Near Harad.

I don't know what else you would do with this mission other than defeat a bunch of Rangers and kill their scouting camps.

Karna:

I wouldn't want a seperate map for Karna when it could be added into Far Harad (in the WOTR Evil Campaign) because it would crowd the LWM a little too much.

Honestly I don't see much of a purpose for Karna being a seperate map. I hate to say this (and I haven't tried it out so I could be wrong) but it sounds like a mission where you just build up a force with no other objective. My whole Far Harad idea a couple of posts back kind of combines the essence of this while recruiting for the Dark Lord. But that idea was intended for the LWM campaign. This map would probably work differently in the Evil Linear Campaign.

Once again, for its design I am going to stress having a tropical oasis in the middle (or in the city somewhere). I think that it would look better in stone now that I think about it. So long as it's nothing like a mosaic tile because that kind of stonework would seem like it would fit Rhun better.

Far Harad:

Well first of all I don't think there were any jungles in Far Harad unless you went to the very, very southern regions :) . My geography could be off...

Second of all I just don't like the idea of having Mahud units in general, seperate from Harad. Like Mahud archers. I think that you would run into the whole cookie-cutting issue if there were Mahud units. Besides with Mumakil in Harad, who'd want Mahud units? I think that they can get away with being a M.H.H if you really wanted them in.

I don't know, I'm kind of stuck with my idea of a Far Harad mission including Karna for the LWM/Non-linear Evil campaign. Don't get me wrong, your idea would work, I just like mine better (no offence). <I hope I'm not sounding to full of myself right now. Please feel free to criticize my idea ;) like I have done to your's.

Umbar:

I love this idea. My only beef with it is what EA did to it. I don't think that EA's map does Umbar geographical justice at all. To me, Umbar seems to be located under the "Equator of Middle-Earth" along with the Haradrim regions. Therefore when I played this map, I was expecting it to have a tropical environment. I know it seems like I'm pushing for a tropical region somewhere on the LWM, but in this case, I think that it only makes sense because of Umbar's location.

And for Dol Amroth, I agree completely with.

Edited by Scryer, 29 August 2008 - 05:18 AM.

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#448 mike_

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 01:28 AM

Aye, you'd have to go veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery far South to get to any jungles in Middle-earth.

Anyway...those Mahud archers would be campaign-only, and wouldn't be separate from Harad. Except in this Campaign Mission, the details of which are shown above.

Thanks for the feedback.

#449 Scryer

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 03:02 AM

No problem, I hope that I didn't sound too full of myself :) . Would the Mahud archers basically be tier 2/3 archers for Harad?

I have an idea for the LWM Evil Khand mission. I could be thinking wrong here for this idea... And yes, I do realize that this is quite a bit to take in in one page:

- It would have to happen right away after you recruit Harad and Rhun

- I'm assuming that Khand is a pretty dry wasteland. I mean it's bordered by Mordor (which is essentially a wasteland with a nearby Volcano), Rhun (which has desert-like qualities), and Harad (which is the desert). I wouldn't want to see this map completely covered by sand as that would be boring. Plus I would assume the ash from Mount Doom would blow over towards Khand. And the ash would add colour to the land without being covered by sand.

I don't know what kind of an environment you guys are setting for Khand, but I would recommend making it rocky so that players get a different setting to play MOTE in since a lot of their earlier missions are in desert-like settings. Maybe it could be a mission that takes place at night, like Dunharrow?

- Also you would have the "Joined Union" power purchased. I'm not sure whether it's a ring power or a fortress upgrade... When you start the mission, you pay the same for Haradrim buildings as you would for Rhun's buildings. And vice versa.

- Essentially it would be a MOTE vs. Wild mission. I'll explain further below.

- You'd start out with 4 battalions of warriors/riders. This is assuming that you can pnly purchase Swordsmen and Horse Archers (with a possible toggle, if my idea for them gets added in) from the tavern. You wouldn't get a campaign-hero by the way. You would also start with a MOTE builder that can switch from being a Rhun/Harad builder just to reinforce that Khand was bordered by Rhun and Harad. By the way the pop cap should be reached with the number of units that you start with. Meaning that there should be a small population limit (like 150-200).

-I should mention that you would start on a settlement on a hilltop. Complete with BFME2 walls, one farm, an armoury, and a tavern.

- Because I'm assuming that the map is going to look Barren... Because Sauron hired Harad and Rhun and because Khand has an allegiance with both regions, Khand will be expected to throw some guys in. Therefore they would also have to make "an army worthy of Mordor". You can't make an army without food resources and you can't grow food/produce resources on barren bone-dry land. Now here comes your objectives!

There will be 6-9 (at the most) plots highlighted on your map. Because you can't build farms outside of your settlement (if this could be coded, somehow..), you need to find land that allows you to do so. And these 6-9 highlighted places are fertile land. Your goal is to build farms there. But each area with fertile land has a Goblin's/Spider's/Giant's/Troll's/Warg's lair on it. Your objective is to kill them and build a farm on that land.

- I think that there should be wild wargs wandering around so that your builder isn't completely safe after you kill a lair :umad: .

- I also think that the max population cap should be pretty low because the next part of the mission will be fairly easy. Plus you could convert most of the Khandian units into your Haradrim/Corsair/Rhun army if you wanted them in any kind of battle.

- After you've built 7-9 farm/windmills on fertile land, a short cut-scene happens and it reveals a wild (or w/e you want to call it ;) ) camp in an enclosed mountain passage. And guess what? Your next objective is to destroy it. But you only have a small population cap so it could pose some kind of a challenge.

- After the camp is discovered, which consists of a troll/giant moot (Did I get that name right?), a Spider's lair, a warg pit (that would mostly produce wargs but it could occasionally produce Warg Riders), wild spider's/goblins/wargs lairs, and a couple of towers; you have to destroy it. For me it makes sense because the wildlife would need good land in order to survive. Therefore they would take it and cause problems for Khand (who would need resources to build an army).

Having MOTE vs. Wild also brings us away from forcing them to face the same enemy over and over again. Or it would atleast cause MOTE to verse a different faction once during the LWM Evil Campaign :mad2: .

This is just a rough idea for a Khand mission though.

Edited by Scryer, 24 July 2008 - 03:13 AM.

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#450 Rafv Nin IV

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 03:18 AM

As far as the Karna mission goes, I kind of enjoy having a mission that breaks the monotony of "build force, crush enemy." That's one thing I liked so much about Warcraft III and its expansion pack that I think BFME lacks. In addition to normal RTS fights, there were capture-the-flag types, dungeon crawls, extermination of third parties (I'm talking about the mission where you have to kill 100 civilians before the undead claim 100 civilians :) ) and others. If this region is where the Serpent Lord builds his force, then I think there should be hardly any opposition at all. Instead, I think there ought to be perhaps an initial fight against natives, and then when you win, a timer starts. You have until the time is up to complete multiple base and army building objectives, as well as making a force that you like. Of course, the timer wouldn't be long, so it'd actually be a challenge to get resources and build structures/troops before time expired.

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#451 BMWteen

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 06:55 AM

@scryer: how does that have anything to do with khand?

i dont want to sound mean but the way i see it it make no sense, maybe i read wrong...
would there be a khand base which u have to protect/defend from the wild also?

#452 Dre@mer

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 10:18 AM

It's good to see the discussion here going, though I heard a rumor that if you come on this forum on Sunday, maybe.. perhaps.. possibly the campaign outlines will become much more clearer.




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#453 Allathar

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 02:07 PM

I don't see Khand as dry wasteland - the eastern part of Mordor was mostly farmland on which hundreds of slaves worked on to feed the armies of Mordor. It's boring imo, having Khand, Rhûn and Harad dry wasteland. So Khand could be something else.
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#454 Devon

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 06:44 PM

MMM...you might be right allathar. Or you might not. It's jimmy's choice :facepalm:

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#455 Scryer

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 06:46 PM

@scryer: how does that have anything to do with khand?

i dont want to sound mean but the way i see it it make no sense, maybe i read wrong...
would there be a khand base which u have to protect/defend from the wild also?


If you have another idea, please share :facepalm: . There is hardly any lore to go off on with Khand, so obviously there has to be some stuff made up. The whole thing about them being played against wild/goblins makes enough sense to me because there is no way Gondor or the Elves, Dwarves, Rohan, or even Arnor would be in the area and there were a lot of spiders and trolls (I think...) in the mountains of Mordor, bordering Khand. My idea of Khand is just something to try and fire up your imagination because it hasn't been discussed yet.

And Allathar, I have been thinking about that and I have always secretly wanted to see Khand become a Swamp for some illogical reason. It would kind of make sense :S because I guess the Sea of Nurn (<did I get that right?) would drain right into Khand? I truly don't know the geography of Khand. If anything, judging from its geographical location, it would be a very rocky/cliffy/hilly (don't judge my grammar :ermm: ) area. It also looks like it could have a mix of land from Harad, Rhun, and Mordor in the corresponding borders. I think it would have to be a very ashy area in some parts of Khand because it's right by a volcano and if we don't want it to be a desert/wasteland, then sand wouldn't cover it up like it would in Rhun and Harad. I'm thinking something like Dunharrow but with more cliffs. What are your ideas?

Edit: And like Yoda just said, it's the mapper's choice. Happy, Yoda :ex: ?

Edited by Scryer, 24 July 2008 - 06:52 PM.

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#456 Devon

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 06:50 PM

Actually, as I said, it's jimmy's choice. He's makin the map :facepalm:

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#457 CIL

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 06:56 PM

I'm pretty sure that not all parts of Rhun were THAT bad. Anything near an ocean is bound to be much less desert like than what is represented. At least like the coast of Africa. This is the way I see things:
Rhun- Partly wasteland and barren desert, however the parts on the coast are lush and beautiful, or at least (but suffer damage due to Sauron). Has a smal amount of decent sized cities. If my theory is correct, it could easily represent the Middle-East.
Khand- Mostly farmland that fed the Dark Lord's army. Some scattered cities. The essential Rohan of the Dark Lord as it had many horses, leading me to believe it was Mongolia-like.
Harad- Desert wasteland full of small tribes of warriors who, upon occasion, may unite and build small kingdoms, only to fall into the sands (as it seems like kingdoms wouldn't last long there). Most similar to Africa.
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#458 Thingamigig

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 07:18 PM

i think u should start with frodo in the shire

#459 Dalf32

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 07:20 PM

this isnt where we are starting the campaign, this is just a part that we havnt talked about yet. so dont worry, we wont start the whole thing with harad and rhun :facepalm:

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#460 Rafv Nin IV

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 09:17 PM

I think he's referring to the mod campaign starting in Moria. He wants it to start in the Shire.

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