205 replies to this topic

[Mordor Slayer]

Isn't it just a matter of coding something like 'IF buy upgrade THEN enable power' ? it could be the same like the Rohan Stables that you need to build in order to get Shadowfax for Gandalf. If we use the idea of the libraries, then you have two choices:

- The first scenario is that all heroes start at lvl 10 but with no powers, and that you have to buy them all in the library (or earn them in some other way).

- The second scenario is that all heroes start at lvl 10 with some of their lesser powers, and that you have to buy the strong ones at the library (Fellbeast, Word of Power, ...). That would need some balancing though.

I don't really remember the idea behind the libraries, but wasn't it so that you could buy completely new powers there (aka powers we made from scratch)? Because all we have to do now is just use a prerequisite for the existing powers... But I'm not talking from a coders perspective of course.

[Nazgûl]

Yes, but I didn't really mean coding... I meant editing the BSE (Base) in W3D to fit another structure (that will also lack buildups and level ups and damage states). The general idea with libraries was in a way pretty much related to this yes, but not NEW powers really. Rather just instead of gaining them suddenly on the battle field like; Aragorn: "WOW, suddenly I just KNOW I can summon the Oathbreakers - it just CAME to me!" lol

We talked about the heroes having to walk TO and perhaps even INTO the library and gain this knowlegde from a timer. Kinda like when Gandalf rides to MT to read up on the Ring as we see in FotR Coding THIS into the AI would be utterly impossible for me, even if Sûl might have been able to do it, like he made the heroes retreit back to camp when wounded (AWESOME Sûl)

So... for realism I thought I might do it like this instead, but indeed you are right. We still need some powers o be late game, espescially Fells. So, we'd still need some kind of pre-req indeed, and it would fall back to the need of a new structure. However, maybe we can strech our fantasy to the same level like the Stable pre-req. That if the Library is built the knowledge and ability is handed out. And perhaps instead of a Library I could code this power as a Fortress upgrade; "Hero Attributes" or something like that. It would still be rather unlogical though, even if it's better than just gaining them by XP.

Maybe another way would be to make powerful heroes have pre-reqs instead? So in order to gain WK and Nazguls for instance, you need more than just resources. The question is what would that be... lol

[Mordor Slayer]

Maybe we can implement some kind of power like 'Last Stand' or something which enables all lvl 5,6,7,8,9 and 10 powers. I always forget about the AI, and after re-reading my other post it seems impossible to implement for the AI.

Edited by Mordor Slayer, 16 August 2008 - 02:40 PM.

[Nazgûl]

Yeah, without Sûl, I'm rather crippled when it comes to AI matters...

[Garrison Nomad]

Not a big fan of this idea...I've never liked heroes being one-man armies....but them starting out as one-man armies bothers me even more. It's kinda that WC3 feeling...that you have to work to get your heroes leveled up....which may not be realistic, but to me gameplay-wise it's essential.

[Nazgûl]

Well... think of the movies (again)
For instance, Lego's and Gimli's orc-counts? And how most heroes in the movies own most enemies. It's rather "fair" to have them powerful, regardless if it's early or late game. But I agree that it shouldn't speed up the attack phase, as that's essential to the spirit of SEE. I will also work a LOT on balance, and for instace remove all types of hero "dodge" cause it's simply super-unrealistic how they stand their ground when a troll swings a tree right through them, lol. SO things like that might compensate for high powers... and a troll might kill a hero alone

If I could I would slow things down even more. Not build times, but intrease need for economy, like going towards Settlers style and having to build a society for 30-45 mins before the first attack commences... This by have to use butchers, farms, fishermen, toolsmiths, armorys, meltworks, mines, and so on...

[Nazgûl]

As a side note:

All ELITE units in SEE, now have a large 200-300% damage bonus vs Heroes!

Gondor/Rohan: Fountain Guards
Lothlórien: Noldor Warriors
Erebor: Khazad Guard
Mordor: Black Uruks of Barad-dûr
Isengard: Uruk-hai of Orthanc
Moria: Moria Guard
Rhûn/Harad: Harad Hasharii

[Devon]

Lateness ftw!

The problem with level 10 heroes is that some would be incredibly over powered. Heroes like Gandalf are only balanced atm because they take so long to level up, way longer than a hero like eomer. If he starts at level 10, he can just zip out of the fortress and bang, word of power the enemies army. It would make it even more of a hero race to see who could get the heroes with the best level 10 abilities first.

[njm1983]

couldnt you just tone down how powerful heroes are at lvl 10? I think that tank like heroes is rediculous as it is so some kind of reduction to their stats would be a good start.

Another way I just thought up is to have a passive power in the PP tree that enables the heroes, I dont know say 15pp?

Edited by njm1983, 24 August 2008 - 06:34 PM.

[Devon]

That would force you down one branch of the pp tree.

[Nazgûl]

Regardless... I'm seriously thinking about nerfing heroes in general. I don't like the "tank" strategy of EA and the lack of need for units. SEE's is (amongst other things) about all them units we know from the movies. Heroes should be backup and support to units, not the other way around

[Nazgûl]

We need to start fixing powers for the new Heroes... Let's start with MORIA!

- Great Goblin: DONE!

- Bolg: ...

What can we give him. I don't want a lot of summons, as I'm trying to move away from summons in SEE: Also, this is no major hero, so 1-2 powers should be enough. Suggestions? This is something I'd like our new Coder (Dr.Kirk) to work on

[SovietSoldier]

give leadership to wolf riders.i heard he was in the five armies battle.

[Nazgûl]

Yeah most Heroes will have Leadership in some form, but other than that? Maybe he needs something more... like 1 special power unique to him.

[Grig]

Personally, I think that the hero's should stay as they are... as they stand now their butts get kicked by just a few squads - even at level 10 - so they seem pleanty balanced. Especially Gandalf... and his Word of Power ability which kills everyone - even your allies which pisses me off - and having to run into an enemy base ALONE just to use his best skill.

[Nazgûl]

I assume that was a reply to the previos conversation?

[Grig]

Assume it was just a small comment on what everyone has been saying about hero's being too weak/strong

[Nazgûl]

Yeah, I will most likely debuff most heroes as I don't like tanks either. A much MUCH more important issue atm though, is to find special powers for the new heroes, if any. Maybe normal heroes should only have Leadership, and save the special powers for the more prominent ones...

[Grig]

Personally, I wish Beorn could be added to the Dwarves as a late game hero... shapeshifting bear powers always rocked in my view. Though that requires a heavy load of modeling and wouldn't really be worth it for just one hero lol

Another hero that might be a bit more doable would be Radagast the Brown ^^ he seems a Dwarven hero kinda guy

[Nazgûl]

Beorn will be added =)