101 replies to this topic

[Ring o' Fate]

So, what? Do we change Azog's name to Blog?

[Dalf32]

any crossover between the two time periods (arnor/angmar and wotr) is coincidental and not really a valid argument in this case imo. when constructing the factions we need to think of the time periods separately because they are separate.

if a hero wasnt alive at any point during the war of the ring, then he/she did not fight during the war of the ring. it makes little sense then, to have that person in a war of the ring faction.

[Hasfusel]

In a nutshell, my point is that this detail isn't important enough to stop the inclusion of these heroes. From what I've gathered, the mod isn't completely about the War of the Ring in specific, but also about The Hobbit and the Rise of the Witch King. The fact that you could play Arnor against, say, Gondor or Isengard should be enough to negate the importance of a continous timeline, especially when you can have heroes like Arvedui and Arveleg alive at the same time when they weren't born in the same century, and yet they're both the King of Arnor and they fight side by side.
I think most fans of the mod, will not care that the hero is from The Hobbit. People feel cheated with Borin and Thorin III and Prince Bard II. Bard and Beorn make complete sense to have in the Dwarven faction instead of these new, rubbish heroes. People want to see them in the mod. The specific timeline shouldn't override gameplay in such a large way, especially when it's been overriden before. If you're going to exclude Bard and Beorn, then somehow code it so that you can only have each Arnor hero playable in consecutive order according to the timeline, and none alive at the same time, and Boromir can't be alive at the same time as Eowyn because she wasn't a fighter while Boromir was still alive, and or Haldir either if you take the films for the basis of the mod like most of the fans do, and blah blah blah. It's ridiculous, isn't it?

[{IRS}Athos]

are you aware that not everyone shares your view? this should be clear by the fact that there are quite a few people fighting you on this.
and yes it does matter that he was dead. dead people do not fight wars. *gasp!*

the arnor faction spans a very long period of time. long enough for there to be different generations in the faction. the wotr does not last that long. besides, every hero in the mod was alive at some point during the war in which they are fighting.

and once more, just because you dont care that he is dead, doesnt mean that other people dont either.

I think Dalf sums it up rather nicely.

[Dalf32]

no, no its not ridiculous.

you are once again assuming that everyone feels the same way you do. there are a good number of people who obviously dont.

the arnor faction spans a very long period of time. long enough for there to be different generations in the faction. the wotr does not last that long. besides, every hero in the mod was alive at some point during the war in which they are fighting.

give me one good example of how a hero currently in the mod violates the timeline and i will shut up. the fact of the matter is, every hero we have implemented was alive during their war. perhaps not for the whole of it, but for at least some of it.

oh, and the game is about rewriting the story and having it play out the way you want to (originally at least), so being a slave to the lore in the manner about which you are speaking is just silly.

[mike_]

Bard was dead. Beorn was dead. Arnor and Angmar are not set in the same time-frame as the other factions, and both are going to be worked-on.

Your arguments are illogical and infantile.

[Devon]

I sympathize


But regardless, they will be in the campaign if we ever get to it, so you can play them there

[Ring o' Fate]

Ahem.
(Points out Azog)

[dojob]

Yeah I'm late getting in here, but I think my sig sums up my views nicely

[Devon]

Always loved it, always will.

[mike_]

This

[Ring o' Fate]

No. Freaking. Arkenstone. It was buried in Thorin Oakenshield's grave.
And both Bard and Borin are part of lore.
Edit: And please, for the LOVE OF GOD, add GRIMBEORN and have this whole little arguement shut up.

Edited by Ring of Fate, 24 June 2009 - 12:05 AM.

[Uruk King]

As much as I find your ideas interesting (except the arkenstone ones), you had no reason or right to say that the rest of us valued playability less than eye candy, if you read my post on pg 54 of the Dwarves topic, I did deduce ways in which they would be tactically valuable:

http://forums.revora...p...136&st=1060

[Hasfusel]

I don't mean physically the Arkenstone, that's locked away in some tomb under the Lonely Mountain. It was more a kind of rally for the Arkenstone (much as people might rally around a banner or a battlecry), or something like that. I had a bunch of ideas for the name, but none of them really work. I guess it isn't such an inventive power either, so come up with one yourself if you feel one woul be good.

The summary of my assorted posts was that I felt that in this case playability and originality outweighed lore, and that it would be a great new feature for attracting new players and fans of the mod, and that the new Dwarf heroes lacked detail or purpose. It's now case closed because nobody agreed, to my surprise.
I'm still in favour of having some sort of Beorn-like hero, so you could just use the template and change the name to Grimbeorn if you wanted. I think lots of people would love such a hero. Let there be bear-mans, please.
I don't like the Prince Bard hero at all, and I feel Borin IV doesn't fulfill a purpose but is just filling in because the other factions have so many heroes. I suggested both were removed and that King Brand (Bard if I had my way) and Thorin III were reworked to provide more of a link to the overall feel of Tolkein's work and Peter Jackson's films, and of course to the general exellency of this mod.
Beornings as a unit for general use I think would be too extreme, and I'd say either use them as a kind of MHH unit like Zealots or just stick with the one hero Beorn/Grimbeorn.

[Uruk King]

What is it with everyone here completely ignoring my bloody posts??!!

I forwarded a reasonable forum post that's completely ignored, and it's relevant to Hasufels complaints about the Dwarven heroes/

[Devon]

Pardon the second post but I wanted to counter Hasufel's statement on some of the Dwarven heroes, abut axing a fair few of them including Thorin Stonehelm. So I came up with a power list to make them more relevant to Middle-earth as a whole and not EA.

Dain II Ironfoot.
-Rank One: Leadership, leadership bonus to all nearby troops of +25% vision, +200% combat experience, +100% resistance to fear, +100% attack damage.
-Rank One: Great Cleave, powerful attack, damages multiple enemies
-Rank Five: Hasten to Battle, increases the speed of nearby allies by by 100%.
-Rank Seven: King Under the Mountain, grants experience to nearby units.
-Rank Ten: Fortifications, passive, increases health and armor values of buildings within a castle-sized radius, passive.

Thorin Stonehelm.
-Rank One: Horn of the Mountain, causes fear in nearby enemies
-Rank Two: Leadership, nearby alies gain +150% defence, and +75% damage
-Rank Four: Stonehelm, increases Thorin's armour by 150%
-Rank Six: Stand your Ground!, nearby Dwarven units loose 50% of their speed but compensate with a +150% boost in armour
-Rank Eight: Drive them Back!, nearby Dwarven units gain a damage and speed boost of 75%

Gimli.
-Rank One: Axe Throw.
-Rank One: Father Like Son, increases Gimli's defence values by 50% when close to Gloin.
-Rank Two: Leap.
-Rank Four: Breathe, Temperary +50% Speed bonus.
-Rank Five: Slayer.


Gloin.
-Rank One: Father Like Son, increases Gloin's attack values by 50% when close to Gimli.
-Rank Three: Axe Strike, Knocks back and damages Targeted units
-Rank Five: Words of the Veteran, Grants experience to targeted troops
-Rank Seven: Dwarven Grudge, Nearby Unit/Hero Ability timers recharge 25% faster, passive.

Dwalin.
-Rank One Toggle Axe/Bow
-Rank One: Lord of the Ered Luin, leadership to nearby Ered Luin Venturers
-Rank Two: Traveler, temporarily increases move speed of target battalions.
-Rank Five: For Balin, increased damage to Trolls and Orcs. Passive.

King Brand.
Rank One: Leadership, leadership bonus to all nearby Dale troops of, 10% Speed, +180% combat experience, +50% resistance to fear, +120% attack damage.
Rank Two: Valiant Lord, increases Brand's attack damage by 85%
Rank Seven: King's Favour.
Rank Eight: Prepare for War!, nearby ally strutures gain a production increase of 65%

Bard II.
Rank One: Toggle Bow/Sword
Rank One: Wounding Arrow
Rank Four: For the King, when near King Brand, Prince Bard gains an attack and armor boost.
Rank Seven: Black Arrow, a powerful arrow shot, deals higher damage than woundig arrow.

It would probably be too much to ask of Rob, these are only ideas. Ones that probably won't make it in

There you go. Lazy people don't click links is why, I'm guessing

[Hasfusel]

Those templates seem slightly too massively powerful. I rather like the inclusion of Dwalin, although I'm not sure where you would find the skeleton for a dwarf hero that toggles between bow and axe, and from my tiny experience of skinning and the like I think making one would be bordering on the impossible.

I still don't like Bard II or anything he stands for. And there seem to be too many powers which involve being near other heroes... I don't know about you guys but these powers are a little tiresome sometimes because you have to keep the heroes together, and also it's not so dramatic as it seems.

[Ring o' Fate]

There are only 4 heroes with the power granting. And Bard becomes the next king, so eliminate him, then what do you get? A leaderless Dale! And then you must hate all archer heroes, which is one of the many things that Bard stands for.

[dojob]

Wait, u mean stealth Bard?