34 replies to this topic

[fieldwings]

Rushing does lead to an immediate victory, in some cases you just need to finish off your opponent when he's weakened.

Too bad it's not that simple in real online matches. Go ahead, watch matches between actual skilled players online, it's NEVER been that simple, especially in Generals and later games.

As I said, I have real online gaming experience only in AoEII. Played against my friend, very skilled one (and the best locally). He did rush me every time and I've lost every match except two. 1vs1.
Thanks to that, I could rush and counter-rush every single other opponent, b/c he taught me painful lessons.

The problem is that you say you can rush and counter-rush, yet you think a mod is better off balanced in favor of turtlers. If you think so strongly about that, separate it into a mode. In fact, IIRC YR has a mode (if not in stock it's in a mod already) which offers defense structures with DOUBLE the health. Isn't that enough?

I did know what rushes are about. And I know that AoEII can't be ended in 10 minutes, except you'd Town Center Rush (which I discovered for myself).
Rushes are possible only after some 12-15 minutes, and they don't give a victory, they're preparing grounds for finishing off your opponent.

If only comparing this to RA2/YR had a beneficial impact on modding RA2/YR... it clearly doesn't, and it's already been explained why.

Mods and games are for turtles and beginning players, too.

I'd like to know how you came up with such an absurd notion, because in no way is it true unless someone like you made a game or mod specifically designed to benefit the strategies of turtlers. I should know, I used to be a HUGE turtler until I tried to compete with skill. Turtling is never a winning strategy unless you play in an environment that specifically benefits it, and as far as I can tell, NO C&C game has ever favored turtlers in any way, shape, or form. Just plain never.

All must be fair. And it will be.

It's never fair. There will always be balance faults. ALWAYS.

Edited by fieldwings, 19 November 2009 - 01:46 AM.

[feillyne]

No, as far as I can see, you misinterpret the boom strategy with rushing or turtling.

The game length is always in favour of boom players, except in cases when turtles have SWs. So the game is balanced towards boom players / boomers, originally. ;-P 2000 credits for advanced tech isn't that much.

The mod must be balanced towards turtlers (better defenses) and rushers (artys) and boomers, as well. Why so much fuss for such things?

I'd like to know how you came up with such an absurd notion, because in no way is it true unless someone like you made a game or mod specifically designed to benefit the strategies of turtlers. I should know, I used to be a HUGE turtler until I tried to compete with skill. Turtling is never a winning strategy unless you play in an environment that specifically benefits it, and as far as I can tell, NO C&C game has ever favored turtlers in any way, shape, or form. Just plain never.

Yes, right, right.

Rushing always meant skill. It won't in ASM. In ASM "skill" will be decided by tricks and effort put into whatever strategy one has chosen. No more rushers = great strategists. Only those who can handle rushing or turtling or booming, will prevail. Hail!

If only comparing this to RA2/YR had a beneficial impact on modding RA2/YR... it clearly doesn't, and it's already been explained why.

It's never fair. There will always be balance faults. ALWAYS.

Judging won't prove your point. The reality will tell. The reality is like concrete. Words are like sand, which you can throw and they will be blown by the wind.

Edited by feillyne, 19 November 2009 - 03:50 AM.

[Beowulf]

To be sincere.
I didn't play YR online! But I did play vanilla RA2, not once, not 5 times, but more.

I've played both to a pretty good extent. While I'm no means great, or even "good", just decent, with enough skill to understand economy management, etc.

Rushing is easy, just the ending of it if you don't succeed, is... well, hard. But rushing itself is easy, I said that many times already.

Rushing is not easy. It's quite the opposite and takes quite a lot of precision to be handled correctly. If you're one move off, your opponent can turn the tide and overtake your group, thus stopping the advance. Which leads to...

This:

Rushing does lead to an immediate victory, in some cases you just need to finish off your opponent when he's weakened.

What if the rush fails and your opponent compensates? What then? Right, you lose because you have nothing left with which to defend your base.

As I said, I have real online gaming experience only in AoEII. Played against my friend, very skilled one (and the best locally). He did rush me every time and I've lost every match except two. 1vs1.
Thanks to that, I could rush and counter-rush every single other opponent, b/c he taught me painful lessons. I don't remember failing except some two-five times from all matches (I can bet that the total amount will be about 100-200), against other players... which were experienced and were skilled too (also played with this same skilled friend).
I could even rush a friend, which is one of the best players in C&C: Generals and HoMMIII, who could tackle that friend of mine, he could destroy and win with him, but my forward rushes couldn't endure... even if I'm so sucky n00b when playing with that friend which taught how to defend and rush myself (you wouldn't want to be one of these two poor guys who get rushed by him doing scout rush and me doing castle rush almost simultaneosly when we were both in the same team).

Irrelevant. RA2 does not equal AOE2. They do not play the same. This is like comparing apples and oranges. You can't do it and look smart in the end. Again, you prove that you're still an idiot.

RA2 - I have less experience, yes, but I have played it a few times, rushed, got rushed, played normally a bit.

Yes, "less experience." Judging by how extensively you're raping the gameplay, I'd say you have next to no real experience.

I did know what rushes are about. And I know that AoEII can't be ended in 10 minutes, except you'd Town Center Rush (which I discovered for myself).
Rushes are possible only after some 12-15 minutes, and they don't give a victory, they're preparing grounds for finishing off your opponent.

More irrelevant bullshit.

So screw you. ASM won't be that easy, as easy as RA2/RA2:YR is.

RA2 isn't that easy against anyone with a modicum of skill, which is very few people anymore. Kinda sad really, they'd put you to shame.

And if somebody's n00b, it's you who doesn't have real knowledge or experience in various strategies. You can be a master in RA2, but you'd a n00b in other games.

You presume I play nothing else. You would be wrong in that assumption. I played a ton of StarCraft back when I was in high school and I was actually really good and it's vastly different from RA2, and C&C in general. In any case, I adapt fairly well to each game I play since I do a little bit of reading and playtesting against the AI to see how the game flows.

Mods and games are for turtles and beginning players, too. All must be fair. And it will be.

No, it won't be fair to someone who has a decent understanding of game mechanics but is a weary of an early for fear of losing his army. You've effectively screwed half of the gaming population. Congratu-fucking-lations, you moron.

Rushing always meant skill. It won't in ASM. In ASM "skill" will be decided by tricks and effort put into whatever strategy one has chosen. No more rushers = great strategists. Only those who can handle rushing or turtling or booming, will prevail. Hail!

No, you've reduced the game to mindless campfests. That's what it always be. No one will want to build an army and attack if the other guy can wall in with defenses out the ass. That has no skill attached to it. Fuck that.

[feillyne]

Wow, you waste your time writing it. :-)

Reduced the game to a fair play, not "only rushing is skill". It doesn't matter if you camp, when the opponent has SWs or artys.
Especially if ASM have more powerful SWs, which do more damage. Of course, you don't know that. -_-


Well, SC is one game that I will avoid, for your sake. Thanks.
And that saying anything about SC is irrelevant either.

AoEII is. Why? You'll never know. ;->

Edited by feillyne, 19 November 2009 - 04:12 AM.

[MT]

when the opponent has SWs or artys.
Especially if ASM have more powerful SWs, which do more damage.

Then again, many SWs and artys can be used for defences when turtling. Whether its taking out your opponent's large attack force, or shielding your own defenders, they can help turtling that way. Artillery especially, try not to make it too good at moving targets or anti unit or they may be saving buildings instead of sieging their enemy's bases.

I won't offer all problems and no reasonable solutions though.
Simply making SWs and artys have more anti structure, more anti-defensives building WHs would be key.
So a well placed arty attack or SW can open a way in the net of defences for your main force to attack.
Also a system like MO applied to defences, where each defence takes some money over time, can help too: the defences will still be worthwhile in small numbers placed strategically, but when spammed will become a major long term drain on your resources. As time goes by the money that is taken gradually adds up, and you won't have the money to build up decent attack forces nearly as quick as the non-turtling player, and in the long term can simply lose from this difference. Of course I'd advise not to go crazy with this, and keep the amounts drawn from individual defences to be small; so only when the structure is spammed (like, 10 or 20) will the player really get the hard impact. Putting this higher on tier 2 defencive buildings can serve as a practical limit instead of the usual build limits (forget about tier 3 though... that amount of power and redundancy is ridiculous and unnecessary, they are better off as expensive SWs)

AOE and SC are somewhat relevant, both being RTSs, so it could be useful to draw some ideas from the balance plans, but all in all you must remember the main differences. People play CNC games for CNC balance, usually, and using all the balance of some other game may destroy the appeal to the YR players.

Edited by MT, 19 November 2009 - 04:49 AM.

[feillyne]

Then again, many SWs and artys can be used for defences when turtling. Whether its taking out your opponent's large attack force, or shielding your own defenders, they can help turtling that way. Artillery especially, try not to make it too good at moving targets or anti unit or they may be saving buildings instead of sieging their enemy's bases.

I won't offer all problems and no reasonable solutions though.
Simply making SWs and artys have more anti structure, more anti-defensives building WHs would be key.
So a well placed arty attack or SW can open a way in the net of defences for your main force to attack.
Also a system like MO applied to defences, where each defence takes some money over time, can help too: the defences will still be worthwhile in small numbers placed strategically, but when spammed will become a major long term drain on your resources. As time goes by the money that is taken gradually adds up, and you won't have the money to build up decent attack forces nearly as quick as the non-turtling player, and in the long term can simply lose from this difference. Of course I'd advise not to go crazy with this, and keep the amounts drawn from individual defences to be small; so only when the structure is spammed (like, 10 or 20) will the player really get the hard impact. Putting this higher on tier 2 defencive buildings can serve as a practical limit instead of the usual build limits (forget about tier 3 though... that amount of power and redundancy is ridiculous and unnecessary, they are better off as expensive SWs)

AOE and SC are somewhat relevant, both being RTSs, so it could be useful to draw some ideas from the balance plans, but all in all you must remember the main differences. People play CNC games for CNC balance, usually, and using all the balance of some other game may destroy the appeal to the YR players.

Thanks for your post, it's really helpful and does explain things in a polite way.

I'll follow your suggestion to make artys more anti-structure and chiefly anti-base defences.

Hmmmm, that's an interesting idea to make defences drain money, but also base defences could be made more power-expensive to prevent abuse. Then the base space would be limited, one couldn't make sufficient amount of power plants covering the power used, unless one had built more advanced power plants.

Well, maybe instead of 2-tier base defences, 3-tier ones could drain money and more power. Upkeep. :-) Limiting the number of them can be useful, though.
Also SWs could be made even more powerful, capable of eradicating everything. Literally everything, and the timer should be set back to the original one (b/c now recharge time is 10 minutes).

Well, I'd like to keep the idea of 3 tier defences, it could distinguish the mod from others, too. :-) But well, I rethink your other suggestions, I'll try to make the introduction of 3-tier base defences as balanced as possible - if it comes to that.

AoE and SC is related in that respect, that was just a blamefest directed at Beowulf. = /


Yes, it can destroy, I'll be pondering over game modes and if the mod goes too far, I'll make some "traditional" ones for YR players.

Edited by feillyne, 19 November 2009 - 05:20 AM.

[Beowulf]

Wow, you waste your time writing it. :-)

Not really.

Reduced the game to a fair play, not "only rushing is skill". It doesn't matter if you camp, when the opponent has SWs or artys.

It's entirely the opposite if you denounce an entirely valid strategy, which has so many tactics applied to it that it would make your retarded head spin.

Especially if ASM have more powerful SWs, which do more damage. Of course, you don't know that. -_-

Why would I know that? But in any case, this is more just gameplay raping bullshit.

Well, SC is one game that I will avoid, for your sake. Thanks.

That's good, because you'd be so astonishingly pathetic that it would be unendingly sad.

And that saying anything about SC is irrelevant either.

Not exactly. It was a direct response to an irrelevant point you made, and I did not equate it to anything RA2 related whereas you equated your AOE2 experience to RA2's gameplay. Quite simply, you are fucking stupid.

[SMxReaver]

http://forums.revora...showtopic=59589

In this thread, I see Fen, Bolt, and Apollo. All of which are vets of modding. I won't call myself a veteran but I know a thing or two as well. It seems you blatantly ignore this prime rule of Revora. You spread your stupidity here in order to get away from us at PPM because even PPM won't put up with your n00bish ideas.

Also; your mod is a joke, learn to balance, and maybe RADEN or Gamereplays.org would think your mod changes are a good idea. (places with non-mod players, since you seem to think people with advanced understanding of the game are idiots)

[Beowulf]

If he posted at RADEN or GR.org, he would be laughed off as the biggest noob in existence.

[feillyne]

It's a mod, not a game, as Beowulf on PPM once said, this is the Internet, one can release whatever he wants to.

That's all.

People being polite and contributing anyway to this thread were MT, Apollo, even OmegaBolt, also fieldwings criticised and agreed with Beowulf - but he did it the polite way.


I don't respect you because of skills. I respect everyone who respects me or my mod, regardless of their experience or position. Also I'll respect their mods.

If you don't like - be out. As long as you call anybody, literally anybody, a noob or anything vulgar or derogatory, I won't respect you or your mods and I won't listen to you, your suggestions or your whining about what somebody is, regardless how much skill you show and how much you write or say.

Edited by feillyne, 19 November 2009 - 05:51 AM.

[SMxReaver]

I'm a staffer, and Revora has a policy about quality projects. If you look, every mod creator has had criticism on a level equal to Beowulf's. And they've considered it with an open mind instead of seeing big words and going "lolno" to the criticism.

You continuously argue against veterans, and despite what you think it is the veterans that run this place. Not Banshee like at PPM. We know how things work far better than you.

[feillyne]

You just brag about how 'good' you are, when in fact you're infringing my rights and even threaten me "I'm a staffer [and I can take you out]".

I pointed out who was polite. They were polite, not some fest with calling me n00b. It's a derogatory term and I'm insulted.

Not Banshee? What do you mean? "Not veteran"? I respect Banshee, I do not know what you think of him, but he deserves to be respected.

And remember that I could delete Beowulf's comments long time ago, but decided not to. Especially if he puts effort into it.
I never depreciate anybody's effort by saying "he's not a veteran", "he's a n00b", "he has n00bish ideas", etc.

People will decide what's best. People who actually play the mod, and not even touch it and judge it by their experience.


As I said - this is a mod, why make a mod, which is too similar to the original game? There are enough such mods, which change a little.


Experienced people can make mistakes too, or misjudge, or be biased.
The problem is that they won't admit it easily, or even give up their stepping on somebody's freedom.

And I have the right and freedom to do with my mod whatever I wish to do, and I can listen to criticism. I have one rule, to respect and listen to polite criticism, and avoid people who try to force me to do something, and I don't care what grounds they have, don't care if they experienced. As long as the criticism polite, it'll be listened.

Edited by feillyne, 19 November 2009 - 06:43 AM.

[fieldwings]

The mistake you make is that we're willing to admit and correct our own mistakes, in fact we do it all the time. The other mistake is that you aren't taking Fen's more constructive criticism seriously simply because of his attitude. If you can just put up with him and listen to the advice rather than the insults, you'd be better off as he DOES know what he's talking about.

Rushing always meant skill. It won't in ASM. In ASM "skill" will be decided by tricks and effort put into whatever strategy one has chosen. No more rushers = great strategists. Only those who can handle rushing or turtling or booming, will prevail. Hail!

It's impossible to eliminate rushing. IMPOSSIBLE. With that, it's also impossible to bias against rushing as a well-calculated and micro'd rush will succeed no matter how well your base is designed, or how good your defensive strategy is.

Judging won't prove your point. The reality will tell. The reality is like concrete. Words are like sand, which you can throw and they will be blown by the wind.

So with that, I'll happily whisk away your sand with the swipe of my hand; my judgments are based on experience, which is based on playing with an array of high-profile and respected mods for TS/FS (including dozens of lower-profile mods for TS), RA2/YR, and Gens/ZH, playing online with several of said mods, and the results (with private testing) of my own experiments with balance in all mentioned games. You wouldn't know it (hell, Fen probably doesn't realize who I am just yet ) but I've been around the modding scene long enough to know what makes each faction balanced in each game, and what best improves the balance of each faction, noting how careful each change has been made in relation to the changes made to the other factions (might be confusing but that's the best way that I can put it). There's a reason I said what I did how I did, and it's for a very simple reason; you lack experience in pretty much every field necessary to do what you're trying to do, no matter what you tell us. In fact if all of what you said was true, you would have caught yourself LONG ago and posted a more balanced set of changes.

In spite of all this, I'll offer a little hint (which in itself should hint that I'm not just making things up or trying to cover for something); DO NOT balance with bias toward or against playing styles, ONLY toward the strengths of each faction. You might surprise yourself and maybe even us.

Edited by fieldwings, 19 November 2009 - 08:35 AM.

[Eagle 11]

Generally there is 4 fundamental playstyles:Rusher,Turtler,Balanced,Steamroller,and there is your own style consisting of your unique mix of them based on your knowledge,experience,think capacity etc.
If you overpower defenses the only way to win remains Steamrolling,for rushes must be too early(mostly unable in even smallest map) and balanced will only be able to defend,could never attack in this case.
If you overpower units every rush is a win and in such case you would have enable "constant rushing" for even the smallest unit can demolish builds with small calibers when comes in hordes(look. GI Rush) and turtlers would ever loose.
you must find the middle of this 2 and improve the game so.

[feillyne]

@fieldwings: the mistake was stepping on my freedom. It was the only important one, the rest I can ignore.

I don't take advice mixed with insults. If he can't do that w/o insults, there's no way I listen to him. Only assertive attitude remains against such words.


Eliminating rushing? Who said that? Only rushing will be less significant, less important. One will be able to turtle and creep his own base all the way up the opponent's, thus rooting him out.


Okay, and I sweep your judgments (maybe except few) away with my own hand, b/c technically it remains my mod, this mod also belongs to people who contributed to it... practically, in stone. Words and advice are just sand.
You can have experience in many games, but if you didn't play the mod, you don't even have anything to say about it, anything really constructive. Sorry for harsh words, but it's true. The same with the games you played - you played, you can judge THEM - but if you didn't play other games, why should you have anything to say? The same rule applies to the mod. If you haven't played - why bother me?


Yup, that's why I added Tank Destroyers for Soviets! Plus Hind Transport, and a transport helicopter for Yuri, too! It isn't balancing of styles, but also of units and factions.


@Eagle11: yup, one sometimes mixes the styles up, or just plays mishmash (wouldn't name it "balanced"). Boom players are steamrollers, technically.

Well, I played my own mod, I can say that you can rush the enemy in the very first minute.
As Soviets, I gathered up the starting tanks, and having them close together, I overpowered one by one tanks of the enemy AI, thus ending his remaining defenses. Hit & run tactics or luring tanks to confrontations 'one vs several'.

But there are appropriate base defenses, i.e. gun turrets, anti-armor ones, so one can defend oneself if one finds oneself in such situation. Just AI is stupid. ;-)

Edited by feillyne, 21 November 2009 - 07:13 AM.