5129 replies to this topic

[BlackAbsence]

Was just watching the MO tournament and within the match with China vs SC, China won due to a copious amount of EMP spammage.

Considering that they cost $500 and can kill expensive infantry clusters far beyond worth $500, it has been noted as OP by most players.

My suggestion is a way to balance Mines in general via the implementation of Mine Layers which were in RA1.

 

Mine Layers would be a unit that can deploy Mines around them out in the field via a support power. The more Mine Layers one has the more Mines may be laid for the same price.

Edited by BlackAbsence, 18 April 2017 - 07:01 PM.

[X1Destroy]

That would just create another situation like with the fury drone, good but too much of a hassle to make use of.

Why do people always dislike easy ways to do things?

[Destroyencio]

It's about balance. As BlackAbscense said for 500$ you can kill big clusters of infantry that cost far beyond than 500$. If you watched the Tournament, the Chinese player was basically destroying clusters of Duneriders with just a EMP Mine drop, doesn't make sense.

[X1Destroy]

And what about it?
A single gun turret cost only 600$, can take hits from 3 rhino tanks that cost more than it, and eventually kill them all. More over, it's not one time use.

Should we nerf all base defenses so that they will be equal to mobile units cost to cost wise? Doesn't make sense either.

This game do have many problems regarding balance but this is propably the least to worry about. There is only one faction that can make use of this tactic and it is limited to be only around the conyard.

Now, if it's something that can be placed anywhere on the map like the mine drop in generals then yes that would be a problem.

Edited by X1Destroy, 18 April 2017 - 08:41 PM.

[TeslaCruiser]

Nah dude, this thing is an instakill to groups of infantry. And is also quite good against units.

[CLAlstar]

X1Destroy probably never got his chronoshift denied by single mine placement or never lost a big chunk of his attack force to a single mine drop.

 

SP/Skirmish people should be denied of ability to write here.

[TeslaCruiser]

We could use a separate thread just for multiplayer balance. And keep this one as MO 3.3 // Feedback & Suggestions (Single Player Balance, New Features, Modifications etc.)

Maybe?

 

[TY229]

and it is limited to be only around the conyard.
 

 

 

PepoThink

[X1Destroy]

Does this mean anything? The further you crawl your base like that the more vulnerable it will be. They will just go at it from another way.

I admit, I never lost my chronosift to mines cause I never play with superweapons. But I still failed to see why it capable of instant killing infantry near your base a serious problem that requires complete removal of its current form which is solid and simple to use.
There should be a way to tweak it without doing that, like make it deal damage only to vehicles or halve the damage or something.

It was like that in 3.0 and was never complained about, so why now? Nothing has changed since then.

Edited by X1Destroy, 19 April 2017 - 03:50 AM.

[Damfoos]

We could use a separate thread just for multiplayer balance. And keep this one as MO 3.3 // Feedback & Suggestions (Single Player Balance, New Features, Modifications etc.)
Maybe?

Problem is, there's only one mod. And adding/changing stuff to satisfy PvE players will negatively affect PvP balance, while PvP balance adjustments often don't affect PvE experience at all. So it makes sense to assume that PvP balance tweaks will always be the top priority. while SP-only suggestions have a good chance to be rejected because the suggested things will mess up PvP.

[Handepsilon]

It was like that in 3.0 and was never complained about, so why now? Nothing has changed since then.

eeeeh wrong

3.0 : Mine placement works like wall placement
3.3 : Placing one will produce 5 mines at once at one spot

[CLAlstar]

But I still failed to see why it capable of instant killing infantry near your base a serious problem that requires complete removal of its current form which is solid and simple to use.

 

https://www.twitch.t...474454?t=48m40s

 

Watch this game. Then review your opinion. Having a set of mines being placed ON TOP OF YOUR FORCES resulting in swift instakill of almost everything, including heaviest vechicles, infantry or any other shit, is NOT fun. Esspecialy when enemy does not need to bother with doing other thing, making mobile defenses etc etc. If you are not quick enough to move away of fotrces - and its a matter of one, two seconds - you are dead. Sounds balanced, right? Geno/Mad mine arent as bullshit as this.

[TY229]

Does this mean anything? The further you crawl your base like that the more vulnerable it will be. They will just go at it from another way.

I admit, I never lost my chronosift to mines cause I never play with superweapons. But I still failed to see why it capable of instant killing infantry near your base a serious problem that requires complete removal of its current form which is solid and simple to use.
There should be a way to tweak it without doing that, like make it deal damage only to vehicles or halve the damage or something.

It was like that in 3.0 and was never complained about, so why now? Nothing has changed since then.

 

You said it was limited around the Con Yard, never seen a 2x2 Soviet Barracks as a Con Yard before tbh.

 

Not just infantry, shutting down entire armies with just one click and $500 spent you can erase armies with a cost over $10.000

 

That is far too cost efficient and the fact that if it pops right under your army, there is nothing you can do. This is Mental Omega, not some Telltale point and click adventure game about China Mine Defense

[X1Destroy]

 

It was like that in 3.0 and was never complained about, so why now? Nothing has changed since then.

eeeeh wrong

3.0 : Mine placement works like wall placement
3.3 : Placing one will produce 5 mines at once at one spot

 

 

But the amount of damage per mine was the same.
 

 

But I still failed to see why it capable of instant killing infantry near your base a serious problem that requires complete removal of its current form which is solid and simple to use.

 

https://www.twitch.t...474454?t=48m40s

 

Watch this game. Then review your opinion. Having a set of mines being placed ON TOP OF YOUR FORCES resulting in swift instakill of almost everything, including heaviest vechicles, infantry or any other shit, is NOT fun. Esspecialy when enemy does not need to bother with doing other thing, making mobile defenses etc etc. If you are not quick enough to move away of fotrces - and its a matter of one, two seconds - you are dead. Sounds balanced, right? Geno/Mad mine arent as bullshit as this.

 

This problem is caused by the fact that the mines instantly explode the moment it was placed and then touched by enemy units. I agree that it's quite frustrating.

It need to have a big delay after being built and should only trigger after that. After all it supposed to be a pre-placed defensive trap weapon, not an offensive one.

[Damfoos]

Not just infantry, shutting down entire armies with just one click and $500 spent you can erase armies with a cost over $10.000

*cough* Megaarenalodons *cough*

I agree, "click here to delete army" is not what mines are supposed to do, and there should be some way to make them more of an actual trap rather than an emergency army delete tool (same goes for stun grid plops BTW). But then the whole mechanic of mines must be reconsidered: right now if you place mines in advance you most likely waste your money, because MAD mines can randomly trigger on infantry which they don't damage, and Genomines (which I hope will be improved in 3.3.2 to not spawn neutral brutes) do the same with random vehicles they can't damage either. There's a very high chance the mines you've placed will explode without dealing any damage, because the units that triggered them are not the units these mines are supposed to hurt. Then again, there's another problem: mine triggering range. Genomines explode waaaaaay before the infantry approaches the area where it will do serious damage, and so do MAD mines, except in their case things are better. If possible, I'd make mines and grids disabled for a few seconds after they spawn, and either decreased their triggering range while giving the player a way to manually detonate the mine, or made them not trigger on targets they can't damage.

People don't scream about other mines because Genomines are not implemented correctly and are a way to shot yourself in a leg right now, so nobody uses them, and MAD mines are not used for some strange reason. But if they would work as intended, Genomine plops (with current activation time and mechanic) would make people rage even more. Oh, and compared to other mines the EMP mines are all-round, so even if it triggers on something it wasn't placed for, it will still do plenty of damage. And they come in groups, which means a lot of potential damage.

Edited by Damfoos, 19 April 2017 - 09:50 AM.

[TeslaCruiser]

 

We could use a separate thread just for multiplayer balance. And keep this one as MO 3.3 // Feedback & Suggestions (Single Player Balance, New Features, Modifications etc.)
Maybe?

Problem is, there's only one mod. And adding/changing stuff to satisfy PvE players will negatively affect PvP balance, while PvP balance adjustments often don't affect PvE experience at all. So it makes sense to assume that PvP balance tweaks will always be the top priority. while SP-only suggestions have a good chance to be rejected because the suggested things will mess up PvP.

 

OC I mean single player = campaign. Thing is PvE players always have some (wrong) opinions about balance and the discussion get corrupted by their sole presence

[RushingRasputin]

https://www.twitch.t...474454?t=48m40s

 

Watch this game. Then review your opinion. Having a set of mines being placed ON TOP OF YOUR FORCES resulting in swift instakill of almost everything, including heaviest vechicles, infantry or any other shit, is NOT fun. Esspecialy when enemy does not need to bother with doing other thing, making mobile defenses etc etc. If you are not quick enough to move away of fotrces - and its a matter of one, two seconds - you are dead. Sounds balanced, right? Geno/Mad mine arent as bullshit as this.

 

Haven't thought of mines being this strong until I watched the video. The mines should have a far longer arm time. 

[Speeder]

EMP Mines will be adjusted. They will no longer be able to instantly "attack" once deployed in a five and their effectiveness vs infantry will be heavily decreased. Also, they should have never been able to EMP infantry that's normally immune to it, only Volkov should have the ability to EMP everything. There will also be a small price increase.

 

Not sure where you're getting the idea that they should only be placeable around ConYards from though.

[TeslaCruiser]

Oh, boi here I go again.

 

Basic infantry units are unbalanced, one of the biggest problems is the training times wich results in a weird advantage for expensive units. The second major problem is the range advantage knightframes have over any other. This advantage can be easily exploited just by running away-shoot, repeat since they all share the same speed.

 

My solution for this:

Increase conscripts cost +30 (80) and add close combat damage bonus +50% (maybe speed 7?)

Decrease knightframe cost -100 (300) and reduce range from 6 to 5 / tweak to damage ( proportional reduction to new cost)

 

So my idea is to create a skillful tier 1 infantry gameplay + some interesting dynamics between factions.

First, the cost gap is greatly reduced (-130) to mitigate the training times nonsense

Second, no more range advantage for Knightframes over deployed GIs or initiates

Third, conscripts now can do good use of sheer numbers by effectively overwhelming others. The speed increase for conscripts is another idea that could help, maybe on it own.

 

Those are my thoughts, remember this is about multiplayer balance, Thanks

Edited by TeslaCruiser, 20 April 2017 - 07:35 PM.

[Gameman112358]

I never really use mines in general whenever I play, honestly. Not a PvP player, I will admit, but at the same time, I often times find that if I try to use the mines as intended (hidden defenses set up ahead of time), they either 1) Get detected and destroyed immediately (I would be surprised if people didn't bring stealth detectors with them; most people in MP usually have stealth detectors in their army groups from what I saw), or 2) Gets wasted on a single frigging Conscript/GI/etc. and isn't going off on the T3 Tank that I want it to go off on.

 

I'm not sure if there's a way for mines to only go off if there's a certain number and type of units around it. Say for EMP mines it doesn't go off unless there's 2-3 or more vehicle units in a certain radius around it. Or Genomines not going off unless there's 7-8 or more infantry units around it. Mines having a delay before priming is fine, but I don't think people are going to use them as they were intended for if they're just going to lose their mines to one infantry unit or something like that and have it do no damage (in the case of the EMP Mine). 

 

Also...

 

X1Destroy probably never got his chronoshift denied by single mine placement or never lost a big chunk of his attack force to a single mine drop.

 

SP/Skirmish people should be denied of ability to write here.

You're denying a LOT of people then, I think. Me included. I'm not really sure how many people actually go for MP; from what I remember, people in the vanilla RA2 didn't care much for MP, but I'm not sure if that carried over to MO or not.

 

I don't play MP because 1) Too stressful 2) IMO kinda boring, since (based on Doomy's streams) people simply use the same old tactic over and over. Won't argue with reliable tactics, but seeing it happen a bunch of times over and over does get stale after a while. 3) SP/Skirmish is more fun. Not a fan of stressing myself out in MP; I enjoy playing Skirmish as a quick stress reliever, and I do enjoy holding the enemy horde back in SP, despite how sadistic it is at times. I've seen MP videos, and just looking at them makes my head and heart hurt. It looks so stressful...

 

Also, by that logic, that would mean some of the balance stuff I suggest (buff Eureka for example) would be automatically invalid strictly because I don't play PvP. To use the "buff Eureka" rhetoric as an example, if there was any evidence of Coronia players using Eureka in PvP effectively, I would've let your comment slide, but as it stands, I don't really have much reason to stop writing here. No one uses her, hell, I watched Speeder try to use her on the MO YouTube Channel, and even he was struggling to use her! And that's just one example of a unit that I want to see changed. (Speeder, you are free to interject if I'm wrong. I was going by what I saw on the WoC First Skirmish video; it looked like you were struggling to use Eureka, and then you sorta just gave up after a couple of tries. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

 

It's a suggestions thread, and I'm supposed to give, well, suggestions and ideas. I've warned people repeatedly that I don't play PvP. I tell people I make suggestions based on Doomy's streams, MP videos, and my own experiences. I just simply leave my thoughts and ideas here and let the devs decide. I am not trying to force the devs to go my way; would it be nice if they did? Yes. But at the same time, I know the score, and the devs probably have their own ideas as well (something that I've also said repeatedly), so I don't bother trying to be like "SPEEDER DO DIS CHANGE PLS NAO!!!1!!" or some other sh*t like that.

 

I try to make my suggestions as reasonable as possible, explain my reasoning to the best of my ability, then leave it up to the devs to decide. I don't want to be locked out of suggesting ideas simply because I don't play PvP; is me saying "Eureka needs a buff because she's been proven to be underperforming as a hero, and it shows in MP because every video I've seen where someone plays Coronia, no one ever bothers to train her because of her weak attack and friendly fire problems." invalid simply because I don't play PvP? Even though there's plenty of video evidence of MP players never using her? How is that fair?