5129 replies to this topic

[Handepsilon]

Skirmish and SP situation are different compared to Multiplayer, and it's not simply one being easier and the other is harder. It's the strategy and situations being so different and sometimes barely applies in Multiplayer (especially with how AI ignores resources and tech tree, and how they can pump stuff faster. I find turtling in one spot much more rewarding that immediately pushing out)

Of course there are many similarities, such as Eureka having a low damage for such a high risk attack.

Edited by Handepsilon, 21 April 2017 - 12:13 AM.

[TeslaCruiser]

Yes, of course, you can notice some issues in SP situations. Or even looking at some MP videos and get some ideas about MP, but you lack the experience and the abilities to understand what is going on in a lot of things. That is not wrong, is just a fact.

[Gameman112358]

Skirmish and SP situation are different compared to Multiplayer, and it's not simply one being easier and the other is harder. It's the strategy and situations being so different and sometimes barely applies in Multiplayer (especially with how AI ignores resources and tech tree, and how they can pump stuff faster. I find turtling in one spot much more rewarding that immediately pushing out)

Of course there are many similarities, such as Eureka having a low damage for such a high risk attack.

 

Yeah, the fact that the AI cheats resources and the tech tree, as well as being much faster acting than a human does make it much different than PvP. I kinda find it more fun IMO; there's something fun and kinda awesome in my mind about facing off a giant horde of enemies, seeing giant swarms of infantry, tank platoons, and air armadas rushing at you, and still coming out on top of all that mess (particularly if I'm playing a Foehn Revolt subfaction).

 

Yes, of course, you can notice some issues in SP situations. Or even looking at some MP videos and get some ideas about MP, but you lack the experience and the abilities to understand what is going on in a lot of things. That is not wrong, is just a fact.

 

Come on, I never said I was an expert at PvP, did I? Telling me "I don't know how PvP works" is redundant, since I've already made it clear I don't play PvP and have little intention to. "Lack the experience and the abilities" Please don't go there. I already know that. And quite frankly, both the "no experience" part and the "me not knowing what's going on is a fact" part makes me feel that you're being condescending (at least for me).

 

This is a general suggestions and balance thread; the devs are pretty much tempting fate if they thought they could keep most of the suggestions around PvP balance. That is "just a fact" as well you know, to use your words. Unless you want the devs to simply not allow suggestions unrelated to PvP like the devs in the ROTR forums (those guys don't allow any suggestions in general; a suggestion thread in the ROTR forum = Insta-lock).

[X1Destroy]

I do play pvp, but again those were for fun only matches. Competitive matches are just boring, because you're playing to win at any cost not to enjoy it. With friends you can intentionnaly pro-long the match to see giant armies. But that's not happening with a random person on the net.

[CLAlstar]

>implying competetive games cannot be fun

Im done.

>With friends you can intentionnaly pro-long the match to see giant armies.

Enjoy 10fps battles taking over an hour just because you set up no rush 40 rule

[X1Destroy]

How you people think a game that end in 15 minutes with 4 tanks and 10 dogs be a fun one is just beyond me. If you don't count showing off how fast you can click compared to others as fun, that is.

[DarkEmblem]

How you people think a game that end in 15 minutes with 4 tanks and 10 dogs be a fun one is just beyond me. If you don't count showing off how fast you can click compared to others as fun, that is.

This is SLIGHTLY exaggerated, but if I had to take you seriously on this one. If you can only get 14 units by the time the timer hits 15 minutes, I can see why you don't like playing online that much. Since this is basically the time that you can have quite a big army.

 

Aside from that, PvP games hardly ever end without getting to over 150-200+ units total

Edited by DarkEmblem, 21 April 2017 - 10:56 AM.

[CLAlstar]

Its not about how quickly you can click. There are grandmasters in SC2, whos average APM is around 80 - As example, mine is usually around that but peaks to 200 at times. Competetive PVP is not just a battle. Its a battle of minds, not just "okay, i make this many units and just roll them against equal number of enemy units at X time". Unlike your example, competetive PVP requires sopmething you might not heard about - actual strategy. Observation, learning, retalitaing - while for you those 3 things may be completely not known, for me those are core parts of RTS and makes competetive games fun.

[Tyhednus]

Many PVP matches end with huge clashes. Also, if someone wins with 4 tanks and 10 dogs in 5 minutes, shows at least more skill than hermaderp big armies. Winning with a small amount of troops can give more satisfaction than steamrolling with a huge impractical blob of units. It has that romantic feel of a resistance group dismantling a huge regime.
I have an opinion contrary to Gameman's about Skirmish. While the campaign is immensely enjoyable and challenging, Skirmish I find kinda dull to play regularly, because I have played skirmish on vanilla my whole life and PVP offers something fresh and dynamic. And skirmish ai in MO is an annoying cheater, because they constantly target a certain typenof unit and ignore the rest. The vanilla AI made different kinds of taskforces. It also gave you more room to relax, instead of the endless waves in MO, which gets rather tedious.

Teslacruiser does have a point about Soviet vs Foehn in the early game. Conscripts and halftracks are outclassed by the Knightframes. Terror drones and base defenses are the only reliable options against them. Even GIs and Initiates can handle Knightframes. Furthermore, Knightframes have only 1 extra range and are rather sluggish in my experiences. You can easily catch up with them.
One thing you forget, Tesla: Conscripts outclass knightframes on urban maps or maps with lots of garrisons. Because conscripts are only 50 and one knight is 400, you can capture a lot of important garrisons before the enemy has the same amount of knights to do the same. Just my two cents though. Conscripts might still need a little more oomph.

[Handepsilon]

I thought he was referring more to the build time, since someone once told me that there's a certain cap on how fast a unit can be built.

 

And I think I do feel that training dogs and conscript took roughly the same time.

[Tyhednus]

Yeah, but knightframes are still way more expensive and ifyou get broke early game, you will be in trouble.

[X1Destroy]

You can get 32 conscripts for 4 knightframes, and those 32 conscripts overwhelm them easily. Most will die, but they'll definitely win in the end.

[Damfoos]

You don't. By the time he will get 4 knightframes, you will only build ~10 conscripts which will be shredded with no effort. By the time you get those 35 conscripts, he will already get ~17 knightframes. You also have to skip every other infantry and build conscripts, without building engineers, dogs, flak troopers etc. And when you will finally get that many conscripts, vehicles will be already deployed.

Edited by Damfoos, 21 April 2017 - 12:54 PM.

[X1Destroy]

That is what I meant. The problem isn't that conscripts have bad stats, it's the build time cap that prevent you from amassing them.

Make them train in pairs or with the build time fixed and you'll see how they crush everything.

Edited by X1Destroy, 21 April 2017 - 01:57 PM.

[Handepsilon]

4 knightframes may easily kite out 32/35 conscripts too.

3 simultaneous shots might be able to kill one blob. So all the Frames need to do is run backward, shoot, run backward, shoot.

Only way they might possibly win is if the Conscripts have height advantage or if they're in garrison.

Edited by Handepsilon, 21 April 2017 - 02:28 PM.

[TeslaCruiser]

Training times is probably the biggest issue as I said. Yes, soviets have the (very situational) advantage in urban maps, you should be able to reach buildings faster than a foehn player, but not always because lancers are faster so it is a math problem (training time-speed-distance) nonetheless your infantry is way cheaper

 

"Knightframes have only 1 extra range" nope, they have 2 over conscripts/gis and 1 over deployed gis and initiates

Also, how can they be "rather sluggish" if they all share the same speed? sounds more like an optical delusion.

Right now the only basic infantry that can fight them in a balanced way are the initiates, but this whole thing isn't a big deal to allies or epsilon because GI IFV and Gattlings tanks, Gattlings cost 600 and are so much better. GI IFV cost 700 and is the Anti-Infantry god (7 range AFAIK).

So an alternative way to balance t1 combat is to buff halftracks/tigrs: +0.5/+1 range to match/outrange Knightframes and some decent damage against infantry. And yes I know Halftracks/Tigrs have 2/3 transport slots but that is near irrelevant at tier 1 combat, they are just good at engi rush/drone soviet miners lul

Edited by TeslaCruiser, 21 April 2017 - 06:01 PM.

[BlackAbsence]

What does Speeder mean by "fix alting"?

 

I think all infantry should be built at the same speed biased on price, maybe? Like, $100 GI is quarter of time of $400 Knight-frame and so on?

I think it's simpler if we re-did the concept of basic infantry to match up their price to time built ratio.

Edited by BlackAbsence, 21 April 2017 - 04:46 PM.

[TeslaCruiser]

In vanilla and MO you can order your units to move into enemy structures (WF/REF) using alt + left click. That blocks miners and production of new units. In MO it can be even worst because Ghost Miners

[NorthFireZ]

While it's hard to entirely rebalance basic infantry, the Conscrpit buffs are probably the most needed at the moment. They are completely incapable of competing earlier on. The simple price and status buffs should suffice for now.

By the way, if we are talking about infantry, can we talk about the Siege Cadre and how it's almost completely useless? When comparing to the Dune rider and Pyro holy hell does the Cadres get out classed. Dune riders also out range basic defenses, they are fast, and freaking amphibious. Pyros, on the other hand, are cheap, spammable, and has aoe on their basic attacks. The Siege Cadre's infantry damage on their weapon is so tiny it can hardly be called a tickle. And vs Vehicles? Good freaking luck killing a Flak track before the century is out. Its god damn impossible to call the Cadres a viable unit. The Seal, which kills buildings alone much faster, only cost 150 credit more with a effectiveness rating of +100% if there is any sort of Infantry rehaul please do not forget the Siege Cadre, and their additction to Skittles.

P.s Tesla Trooper rehaul for Russia plz thx

Edited by NorthFireZ, 22 April 2017 - 12:33 AM.

[Destroyencio]

It's true that Siege Cadres may need a little buff vs infantry compared with Duneriders and Pyros. But don't forget that you can use SEAL IFVs as anti infantry measures which easily mad at enemy infantry. Ok jk. But seriously with Seal IFVs you can basically shit on Pyros/Dunes . But if the enemy deploys Duneriders early on, means that they can also deploy Adepts and can fuck off your SEAL IFVs, and there's where Siege Cadre would become useful to counter Adepts for example at T2. 

And about the buildings, it's true that the SEAL can 1 or 2 shot a building, but they have to get in Close range and walls basically deny them, while Siege Cadres doesn't have that particular issue  (and Siege Cadre IFVs hit'n running inside your base can be a pain in the ass)

 

 

P.s Tesla Trooper rehaul for Russia plz thx

 

And about this, not sure if you mean to give Tesla trooper for Russia only or give it a better version. But I like the 2nd idea, a different or buffed Tesla Trooper for Russia would be nice and fitting for the subfaction, mostly since Russia doesn't have anything in T2 that is subfaction unique (while Confeds have Bomb Buggies and Mortars, and China Armadillos) Russia doesn't have anything unique in those Tiers.

Edited by Destroyencio, 22 April 2017 - 10:20 AM.