490 replies to this topic

[Alsch]

Harad's main faction is getting cavalry, but Khand is giving Harad supplementary cavalry. Period.

To answer your question, Harad's third mini-faction is the Corsairs of Umbar.

[Bard]

Mind you, the staff is definitely not ignorant of the fact that Harad had its own cavalry.

The concept of Khand having some sort of cavalry is likely based on the account of their alliance with the Wainriders and the Near Haradrim in T.A. 1944 (i'll not go into details here but basically the Wainriders and the Men of Khand attacked the North Army of Gondor while the Haradrim attacked the South Army). The Unfinished Tales gives a better account in the Northmen and the Wainriders chapter than the Return of the King Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion part of the Appendices.

In the battle north of the Morannon where King Ondoher of Gondor and both his sons were slain in battle, the vanguard of the Wainrider force were said to have comprised of not only the usual Wainrider chariots, but also a great force of cavalry far larger than any expected. Who were these guys? Logically it couldn't have been the Wainriders' horsemen, as they were said to have had few horses, and those that they did have were used as drought horses for their chariots and wains. If the Gondorians did not expect the Wainrider army to have such a large cavalry vanguard, which is forgivable given the campaigns against them prior to this battle, then these had to be enemies that were not a usual element of the Wainrider armies. Furthermore, Tolkien's insertion of the Men of Khand into the passages which detailed the muster of the Easterling forces south of the Sea of Rhun would most possibly have meant that the Khandic people would have a part to play in the coming conflict. Therefore, these horsemen would most likely have been from Khand. Of course, this is only speculation on my part.

The strange axemen from the East the Gondorians saw in the books were most probably not the same people Variags of Khand.
Reason? The Gondorians mention that these were of a 'new' kind they had never seen before, while the Men of Khand did come into contact with the Gondorians long before the War of the Ring (see above). Additionally, those of the allies of Mordor who fought at the Pelennor Fields that had not come into contact with Gondor before were not named accordingly (the 'half-troll men' from Far Harad for instance), while the Variags of Khand were named (likely because the Gondorians had contact with them before the WotR). So, why would the Men of Gondor state that they've not seen the axemen before earlier on, only to abandon that claim and call them the Variags?

However, I am fond of the idea that the Variags might've beared similar appearances with the Varangians, much more so than the far eastern look Games Workshop gave them.
Yes the Variags in the RA Mod will wield axes and will have cavalry.

[Olorin]

Yep, all good enough. Canterbury, I wouldn't worry about anyone editting the LotR profiles unless they were correcting them. Why would anyone want to sabotage Tolkien lore?

Some nut could decide that his ideas are better than Tolkien's ideas, but all the lotr stuff I've senn on wikipedia seems right to me.

Your answer is very true, but how likely is it to happen?

Mind you, the staff is definitely not ignorant of the fact that Harad had its own cavalry.

The concept of Khand having some sort of cavalry is likely based on the account of their alliance with the Wainriders and the Near Haradrim in T.A. 1944 (i'll not go into details here but basically the Wainriders and the Men of Khand attacked the North Army of Gondor while the Haradrim attacked the South Army). The Unfinished Tales gives a better account in the Northmen and the Wainriders chapter than the Return of the King Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion part of the Appendices.

In the battle north of the Morannon where King Ondoher of Gondor and both his sons were slain in battle, the vanguard of the Wainrider force were said to have comprised of not only the usual Wainrider chariots, but also a great force of cavalry far larger than any expected. Who were these guys? Logically it couldn't have been the Wainriders' horsemen, as they were said to have had few horses, and those that they did have were used as drought horses for their chariots and wains. If the Gondorians did not expect the Wainrider army to have such a large cavalry vanguard, which is forgivable given the campaigns against them prior to this battle, then these had to be enemies that were not a usual element of the Wainrider armies. Furthermore, Tolkien's insertion of the Men of Khand into the passages which detailed the muster of the Easterling forces south of the Sea of Rhun would most possibly have meant that the Khandic people would have a part to play in the coming conflict. Therefore, these horsemen would most likely have been from Khand. Of course, this is only speculation on my part.

The strange axemen from the East the Gondorians saw in the books were most probably not the same people Variags of Khand.
Reason? The Gondorians mention that these were of a 'new' kind they had never seen before, while the Men of Khand did come into contact with the Gondorians long before the War of the Ring (see above). Additionally, those of the allies of Mordor who fought at the Pelennor Fields that had not come into contact with Gondor before were not named accordingly (the 'half-troll men' from Far Harad for instance), while the Variags of Khand were named (likely because the Gondorians had contact with them before the WotR). So, why would the Men of Gondor state that they've not seen the axemen before earlier on, only to abandon that claim and call them the Variags?

However, I am fond of the idea that the Variags might've beared similar appearances with the Varangians, much more so than the far eastern look Games Workshop gave them.
Yes the Variags in the RA Mod will wield axes and will have cavalry.

That was a very long way of saying yes. Thanks for clearing that up Bard.

Edit: why aren't my quotes working?

Edit: Better?

Edited by Bard, 16 February 2007 - 07:48 AM.

[Celeglin]

Edit: Better?

Yes, but you didn't have to quote Bard's entire post...

[hdh7]

It is very good to know that yhe modders have a plan for Khand, now only if we could get an answer like that for Far Harad and Umbar.

[Mathijs]

Wouldn't you prefer to have an exercise in patience and a jolly good amount of imaginative discussion instead?

Edited by Matias, 16 February 2007 - 11:59 PM.

[Olorin]

Edit: Better?

Yes, thank-you very much.

Edit: Better?

Yes, but you didn't have to quote Bard's entire post...

But then my "That was a very long way of saying yes" sentence wouldn't have made sense/wouldn't have been clear enough.

It is very good to know that yhe modders have a plan for Khand, now only if we could get an answer like that for Far Harad and Umbar.

Wouldn't you prefer to have an exercise in patience and a jolly good amount of imaginative discussion instead?

I'd take the second option. Except you could drop us some hints to keep discussion going.

[hdh7]

Wouldn't you prefer to have an exercise in patience and a jolly good amount of imaginative discussion instead?

Yeah, I was just kidding anyways. I don't need answers to enjoy the forums.

[hdh7]

Back to discusion, what units should Far Harad have other than the troll/men.

[Alsch]

I don't really think that they should have any other units, and should only be a heavy monster/infantry mini-faction.

[Lauri]

Half-mumaks....

you know, mumaks breed with horses.... would be awesome

[hdh7]

They could have some sort of heavy spear/pike unit and the half trolls could be in units of one.

[Alsch]

Are you serious?

(I'm asking Lauri)

Edited by Alsch, 20 February 2007 - 01:15 AM.

[Lauri]

hell yeah!

[hdh7]

Are you sure your serious?

Edited by hdh7, 20 February 2007 - 01:38 AM.

[Alsch]

The idea itself, in all fairness, is, er.. creative. The fact that you just completely made it up out of the blue, and that it's utterly ridiculous, is a bit much.

One thing that could be added to Harad - not neccesarily the Far Harad mini-faction - could be an anti-cavalry camel unit. Historically, camels were used as anti-cavalry units, as camels were strange to horses, and horses were afraid of them.

Edited by Alsch, 20 February 2007 - 02:11 AM.

[adummy]

i think some people need to learn when Lauri (all bow down and kiss Lauri's feet ) is joking

[Alsch]

Fair enough. I've heard weirder ideas, so I wanted to be sure.

Edited by Alsch, 20 February 2007 - 03:53 AM.

[Olorin]

Half-mumaks....

you know, mumaks breed with horses.... would be awesome

Lauri that was..........out there. Just the thought of that...

One thing that could be added to Harad - not neccesarily the Far Harad mini-faction - could be an anti-cavalry camel unit. Historically, camels were used as anti-cavalry units, as camels were strange to horses, and horses were afraid of them.

That actually got me thinking: instead of anti-cavalry it could be cavalry, just with camels who are slower but have a greater trampling effect and more armour. But then again the actual faction is going to be made up of cavalry, so that won't make much of a difference, unless it becomes a variation of cavalry that Harad has access to.

Edited by Olorin, 20 February 2007 - 05:42 AM.

[Canterbury]

Maybe these camels will give enemy cavarly units "antileadership", which lowers their def, or give them a camel's version of screech to spread the fear in horseseseesses.