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#801 Guest_KP_*

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 12:18 AM

G'day Zakske

Ok thanks mate but I respectfully disagree with him :twisted:


If you remember the parts of the movie with gandalf and saruman

Quote from saruman

You did not think that a hobbit could contend (compete) with the will of sauron did you? Their are none that can.

Quote from Gandalf

Their is only one lord of the ring, only one can bend it to his rule. And he does not share power.

Quote from gollum ( 2nd movie )

Wicked men, servants of sauron

Quote from faramir

Servants of the Dark Tower ( also meaning Sauron )

Quote from gandalf (3rd movie )

Our enemy is ready, his full strength gathered. Not only orcs but men as well. Legions of haradrim from the south. Mercenaries from the coast. All will answer Mordors call.


Now I'm sure some of these quotes were in the books. And they sure don't sound like Sauron is asking his neighbors politely to help him out. It sounds like he is in charge of it all. If your going to say that they were supporters or allies then you have to say the same for saruman which I think is wrong. Evil dosn't have allies they have the one in charge and their henchmen.

I don't see why they can't be called servants. I would not call them allies as being called an ally implies you have a choice in the matter. I seriously doubt they were given much of a choice, unless you consider join him or die a choice.

Ah, there's the rub. That's the same mistake that author Chris Smith made: assuming that because an army is allies to Sauron automatically means that their life depends on the ring. And note this: Zakske is correct about my intent :evgr:

KP - "I knew that, but they were not his direct servants as Zimoo is implying they were. They were people who served him through their own aims of... whatever they had in common with him, basically . And by the way, I have cracked open a book TODAY: a Middle-earth atlas that presents "Servants of Morgoth/Sauron" and Evil Men as two different troop-lines. On the same day in the morning, I cracked open Weapons and Warfare, which offered a visual guide to what even Tolkien would say is correct: Sauron, Orcs, Goblins, Balrog, Cave Trolls, Mordor Trolls, Mouth of Sauron, Siege Equipment, and Nazgul are presented by an stretched evil-eye; Saruman, Uruk-hai, Warg Riders, Dunlendings, and Isengard by a big hand, Haradrim and Mumakil came in with a aztec-looking eye with lid symbol, and Easterlings represented by a persian-looking diamond shape. And, I read the actual novels and they said nothing about Sauron's allies serving him directly, and his allies' descriptions talk only about them serving him through their aims of what they have in common with him" - KP

Of course Sauron did not plolitely ask them to join him. I do not consider join or die a choice. You're right that they were his servants, but they were not Direct servants. And, that "one in charge and followed by henchmen" is not the kind of story JRR Tolkien wrote. He wrote a story about an alliance of races (Elves, Dwarves, Gondor, Hobbits, Rohan, Arnor) rallying against an evil person (Sauron) and his people (Mordor) as well as his completely-foreign-to-him allies (Isengard, Tainted Nature, Harad, Rhun, Angmar), much like Real Life's World War II.

KP - "And, um, Beridan, Sauron offered the Haradrim Gondor's lands in exchange for their loyalty, and the Haradrim have hated Gondorians since before Sauron re-relocated himself from the North Waste (where he fled to following the ruin of Angband and death of Morgoth) to Mordor. And the Easterlings are slightly a different story. In the Beleriand days, Morgoth offered the Easterlings the lands of Hithlum in exchange for their loyalty. When Morgoth died, they headed back to Rhun and encountered the Numenoreans who they hated for the same reason the Haradrim hated them: greed for land. When these two armies discovered that Sauron also hated the Men of the West/North as much as they did, they came to him (about this trait of theirs'), and he offered Gondor's lands to the Haradrim and Rohan's lands to the Easterlings, of course they were looking for revenge, remembering how the Numenoreans (and Northmen) had removed them from their bordering locations and expected them to sell land for free, and going to war on them if they expected any pay. That's the history of the Mordor-MotE alliance" - KP

It doesn't get any clearer than that. And there'e nothing wrong with calling them his servants. As long as you know they served him out of similarity and not out of fear or anything like that. :huh:. The only people serving him out of fear are Orcs, Goblins, and Trolls. That's. About. It. :):

KP

#802 Guest_KP_*

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 12:49 AM

Dear Nazgul,

I hope you put the units I reccommended to you in post 775 into your mod. Without them, Harad would face numerous terrible cavalry-versus-pikemen-related problems, as Rhun would would get shot down and be forced to use Harad's archers, which, to lore-and-creativity-are-equal people like me, makes no geographical sense. :evgr: Plus, I have some hero ideas:

Pallando: The Blue Wizard of Rhun. He is clad in blue (including a headscarf), has blackish brown hair/beard and can do various conjuration magics.

Alatar: The Blue Wizard from Harad. He is clad in dark blue (including a brimless "farmer-hat"), has blackish grey hair/beard, and can do various blazing-heat magics.

Khamul: The Rhunic Ringwraith who wears Easterling armor under his Nazgul cloak and only gives leadership to Mordor's and Rhun's troops.

Indur: The Haradric Ringwraith who wears Haradrim armor under his Nazgul cloak and only gives leadership to Mordor's and Harad's troops.

Dalamyr: The Fleetmaster of Umbar during the 3010's and 3020's as Castamir was during the mid-1400's. He can use many fire-related and water-related abilities and can make the Corsairs feel like they are their own army :)

If you want anymore hero ideas, just ask me :twisted:

KP

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 07:10 PM

[quote name='KP' date='Jul 18 2009, 12:49 AM' post='732588']





Pallando: The Blue Wizard of Rhun. He is clad in blue (including a headscarf), has blackish brown hair/beard and can do various conjuration magics.

Alatar: The Blue Wizard from Harad. He is clad in dark blue (including a brimless "farmer-hat"), has blackish grey hair/beard, and can do various blazing-heat magics.






I dont think the were evil

#804 {IRS}Athos

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 02:14 AM

It was never specified.

KP, the name of your second Nazgul is directly out of the RJ Mod...
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#805 Guest_KP_*

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 04:59 PM

It was never specified.

KP, the name of your second Nazgul is directly out of the RJ Mod...

Actually, the name was first created by the Israelis and given to a northern-Palestinian village. Years later, when Tolkien only named one Nazgul, many sources set a list of names and biographies for them. A group called Mithril Miniatures even came up with differing apperances for them. Now, extending your word of warning, many BfME mods used the names, and even the RJ mod is using those sources when inserting "nine unique Nazgul":

TheLandofShadow

click here and scroll down the products thing until you see the Nine, then view each one one-at-a-time.

just use the link at the bottom :sad:

Here's the link to monsters and undead.

Free Encyclopedia

monsters of thangorordrim and of mordor

And, there are other sources. :cool2: Maybe its the abilities? I don't know, but its not the name :sad: I tried to make the abilities different, though.

Um, Nazgul, do Ringwraiths give leadership to their (still living) ethnicities of Men in your mod? :good:

KP

#806 Captain Beremir

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 09:13 PM

Hey guys. I just recently dowloaded this mod and find it to be great, and just how BFME should be. Here is an Evil Men (titled Rhûn) Faction that I've made up as a suggestion for this mod. I know that many parts of the faction are done for SEE already, but these are just some ideas that can be used where ideas are needed.

(Hero abilities in italics are passive)

RHÛN

HEROES
Mahûd - the Mûmakil Captain of Far Harad
Cost: 1500
Appearance: as in ROTK
Weapon: Club
Abilities:
Level 3- Mirthless Laugh- Mahûd and nearby units gain 50% damage
Level 6- Horn of Harad- stuns nearby enemies
Level 10- Mount Mûmak- mounts a Mûmakil

Malmek - the guard of the palaces of Rhûn
Cost: 1800
Appearance: a Soldier of Rhûn (the pikemen) with a larger shield and perhaps different helmet
Weapon: Spear & Shield
Abilities:
Level 2- Spear Thrust- hits a selected enemy with his spear
Level 5- Loyal Servants- Malmek and nearby Soldiers of Rhûn gain 50% damage and 25% speed
Level 7- Shields Up- nearby Rhûn units become invincible to arrows and trample

Renordin - Sauron's messenger to Rhûn
Cost: 2500
Appearance: Cloaked, like the MoS, with either a hood OR a helmet
Weapon: Sword
Abilities:
Level 1- Mount- mounts a horse (similar to the Mouth of Sauron's)
Level 3- Dark Teachings- gives selected units experience
Level 4- Proven Warrior- Renordin gains 150% damage
Level 8- Treasures of Sauron- selected resource structure temporarily triples its output

Shurkta - the chieftain of the Variags of Khand
Cost: 3000
Appearance: largely build man with reddish leather armor, almost like Hwaldar from RotWK but without the huge beard
Weapon: Two-sided Axe
Abilities:
Level 1- Mount- mounts a horse
Level 1- Chieftain- nearby Khand units gain 50% damage and attack speed
Level 3- Crippling Strike- cripples a selected enemy
Level 5- Heavy Axe- a powerful axe strike that hits multiple units
Level 8- Troll Guard- summons 2 Half-Trolls to the battlefield

Suladan - the "Serpent Lord" ("Black Serpent") of Harad
Cost: 3000
Appearance: golden and red armor, a golden crown
Weapon: Sword
Abilities:
Level 1- Mount- mounts a horse
Level 1- King of Harad- nearby Harad units gain 50% damage and earn experience 2x as fast
Level 3- Black Serpent- enemies flee in fear
Level 5- Poison Dart- ranged attack that poisons a selected enemy
Level 10- Royal Charge- Harad cavalry gain invincibility and double damage

Ataldor - the King of Rhûn
Cost: 3500
Appearance: square shield, large sword, crown, maroon and golden armor
Weapon: Sword & Shield
Abilities:
Level 1- King of the East- nearby Rhûn units gain 50% damage and armor
Level 4- Shield Bash- Ataldor can trample enemy units
Level 6- Slave Driver- turns selected enemy battalion into Rhovanion Slaves
Level 8- Glory of Rhûn- nearby Rhûn units gain 300% damage
Level 10- Sword of Doom- a powerful attack against a single target that deals 500% damage

Khamûl - the Shadow of the East and 2nd of the Nazgûl
Cost: 4000
Appearance: Khamûl the Easterling , but horse should be black
Weapon: Morgul Blade
Abilities:
Level 1- Mount- mounts an undead horse
Level 4- Morgul Knife- a ranged version of Morgul Blade that does less damage
Level 6- Screech- causes enemy units to flee in terror
Level 7- Shadow of the East- nearby enemies lose 25% damage, armor, speed, and vision
Level 10- Ulairi Frenzy- Khamûl gains 300% damage and armor

UNITS

HARAD UNITS
Southrons
Basic Swordsmen

Haradrim Archers
Basic Archers

Haradrim Lancers
Basic Spearmen

Haradrim Raiders
Basic Cavalry

Harad Temple Guards
Elite Infantry
Battalion Size: 3
Appearance: like the guy in the ROTK EE who attacks Merry right after he crawls out from beneath the Mûmakil, with the polearm

Serpent Guard
Elite Cavalry

Wild Mûmakil
Elite Monster/Cavalry/Siege

War Mûmakil
Elite Monster/Cavalry/Siege, with archers on top

Hasharin
Anit-hero assassins
Battalion Size: 1
Always stealthed unless attacking

RHÛN UNITS
Rhovanion Slaves
Peasant-type Swordsmen

Rhûn Swordsmen
Basic Swordsmen

Easterling Bowmen
Basic Archer

Soldiers of Rhûn
Basic Spearmen

Wain-Riders
Elite Chariot Cavalry
Battalion Size: 1
Can toggle between spear and bow

Easterling Kataphracts
Elite Cavalry
Appearance: Easterling Kataphracts

Rhûn Royal Guard
Elite Swordsmen

Battering Ram
Siege

Easterling Catapult
Siege

KHAND UNITS
Variags of Khand
Elite Axemen

Khand Horsemen
Basic Cavalry

Half-Troll Men
Elite Swordsmen

Khand Standard-Bearers
Elite Infantry
Appearance: Flag upon their back and wield a large axe
Battalion Size: 1

BUILDINGS
Windmill- resources, Rhovanion Slaves
Haradrim Palace- (1)Southrons, Haradrim Archers (2)Haradrim Lancers (3)Haradrim Raiders
Rhûn Barracks- (1)Rhûn Swordsmen, Soldiers of Rhûn (2)Easterling Bowmen (3)Rhûn Royal Guard
Rhûn Stable- (1)Wain-Riders (2)Kataphracts
Khand War Tent- (1)Variags of Khand, Khand Horsemen (2)Half-Troll Men (3)Khand Standard-Bearers
Haradrim Temple- (1)Harad Temple Guards (2)Hasharin (3)Serpent Guard
Mûmakil Pen- (1)Wild Mûmakil (2)War Mûmakil
Rhûn Forge- (1)Banner Carrier (2)Forged Blades, Heavy Armor (3)Barbed Arrows
Siege Hall- (1)Battering Ram (2)Easterling Catapult
Watering Hole- Healing
Mordor Tribute- Leadership

FORTRESS UPGRADES
Desert Sandstorm- provides stealth, lowers enemy armor (creates a tan cloud around the fortress)
Quicksand Bog- reduces melee damage to the fortress (makes a quicksand moat)
Wall Spears- damages attacking melee units (spears appear aroung the base of the fortress)
Head of the Beast- causes fear in enemy units and increases damage and armor in nearby units (a great Mûmakil head or skull above the fortress doors)
Beacons of War- reduces the cost of heroes and units (torches or burning woodpiles appear on the fortress turrets)
Steel of the East- adds armor, prerequisite to monument (adds maroon and gold armor to the fortress)
Serpent Flag- Monument, recruits a Giant Black Serpent to fight

POWERS (in order from left-to-right)
5- Coerce -like the CaH power, takes control of selected battalion
5- Scavengers -gain resources for kills
5- Desert Wind -like Angmar's "Fell Wind"

10- The Blue Istari -summons Alatar and Pallando
10- Arrow Volley
10- Blight
10- Summon Dourhands -summons 3 battalions of Dourhand Dwarves

15- Barrage
15- Heatstroke -a mini-Sunflare
15- Whirlwinds -summons 1 or 2 whirlwinds to control

25- Summon Black Mûmakil -summons a large Black Mûmakil
25- Earthquake

Alatar's Abilities:
Blue Flame- a blue fireball attack
Bolt of the Maiar- a lightning attack that hits a single target
Istari Light

Pallando's Abilities:
Istari Blast- like Wizard Blast
Blue Shock- sends out a small blue shockwave
Staff Slam- creates a mini-earthquake with his staff

-Captain Beremir
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#807 ttandchotmail

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 10:06 PM

Nice work Captain :blink:
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#808 Predi

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 10:11 PM

Well, Captain Beremir, there was some really good/interesting ideas. Especially the fortress upgrades and the powers, but instead of Scavenger I would put in something like Dried Land for unit bouses.
I think the units are covered for the faction - ok, I don't like the Rhún Axeman, so the Variags of Khand would be a better choice - but the hero powers are still good ideas.
But I have a question: from where did you came up with the hero names (except Suladan, Khamúl and Mahúd)? Just curiosity :blink:

#809 Dant

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 10:41 PM

Nice idea Captain Beremir ,for Harad there should have Corsairs of Umbar and Haradrim in Harondor(Heavy infantry) and Far Harad(Tribe Men as well) and for Easterling there should have Balchoth..as for Khandish hero..he should rode on chariot accroding to lore.

Edited by Dant, 25 July 2009 - 10:44 PM.

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#810 Captain Beremir

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 11:52 PM

Actually I just made up the other names. They're pretty much random stuff. Ataldor I believe came from Mustafa 'Ataturk' Kemal, because the Middle-East and Rhûn are pretty much all desert, and from Dumbledore because I recently saw the new Harry Potter movie, and hes powerful, as the King of Rhûn should be. Shurkta is dark and powerful sounding in my opinion, and I wanted the name of the Khanish ruler to sound like its half-trollish or something. Renordin is based off of Reniolind from LOTRO, because I think thats a cool name, but I "Mordor-ized" it. :blink: And Malmek I made up a while ago so I can't remember what I got the influence from. If the Khandish hero is supposed to ride a chariot thats fine, these are just suggestions. And I kept the Corsairs with Mordor because they're only one unit and hero, and Rhûn already has so many units. I made this entire thing up in less than a week so its not fool-proof. Any more comments, questions, or suggestions are greatly apreciated :)

Edited by Captain Beremir, 25 July 2009 - 11:54 PM.

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#811 Guest_KP_*

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 06:30 AM

Very interesting ideas, and thank you for supporting Harad anti-cavalry and Rhun Archery being added in. But it's not perfect. For example, the Half-trolls are with Far Harad, not Khand. And, the Blue Wizards should be availble for recruitment. According to the Thain's book, they introduced magic to the MotE armies. :blink:

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#812 Guest_SLAY@_*

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 04:22 PM

Sorry KP i dint know that :lol:

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 10:13 PM

Nice idea Captain Beremir, for Harad there should be Corsairs of Umbar and Haradrim of Harondor (Heavy infantry) and Far Harad (Tribe Men as well) and for Easterlings there should have Balchoth... as for Khandish hero... he should ride on chariot accroding to lore.

All of these concepts are true to JRR Tolkien's genius, except for Khand having the chariots. Tolkien gave no one but Rhun the chariots, giving Rhun's chariots the name "Wainriders". Khandish chariots is a creative but unlorely idea that was first created by Games-Workshop given the release of Shadow in The East. Be careful with your treatment of the "Creativity and Lore are equal" fact of modding. :umad:

And, SLAY@, that's alright that you didn't know that fact. Just balancing lore with creativity like I always do. :p

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#814 Dant

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 12:23 AM

Nice idea Captain Beremir, for Harad there should be Corsairs of Umbar and Haradrim of Harondor (Heavy infantry) and Far Harad (Tribe Men as well) and for Easterlings there should have Balchoth... as for Khandish hero... he should ride on chariot accroding to lore.

All of these concepts are true to JRR Tolkien's genius, except for Khand having the chariots. Tolkien gave no one but Rhun the chariots, giving Rhun's chariots the name "Wainriders". Khandish chariots is a creative but unlorely idea that was first created by Games-Workshop given the release of Shadow in The East. Be careful with your treatment of the "Creativity and Lore are equal" fact of modding. :umad:

And, SLAY@, that's alright that you didn't know that fact. Just balancing lore with creativity like I always do. :p

KP


That because JRR Tolkien describe little information about Khand..and Khandish were once part of Wainriders..also Tolkiengateway said only their leader that rode in chariots. ;)

P.S well i think som creative idea would make game more interesting and i try to stick to original lore as possible
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#815 Emperor of the East

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 03:31 PM

How about we combine Nazgul's Tech Tree with Beremir's? Like Having Beremir's Powers Tree and Nazgul's two factions in one idea? Plus the Whirlwinds being Rhun-deployed realistically by making them 'sand-nados' (I made that word up. That's funny, my RotSK MotE has a similar power that summons one! What an odd and surprising coincidence... was it Beremir or Robnkarla who invented this power???). In addition, We could give Nazgul's Rhun the archers and royal-guard from Beremir's Rhun, and give Nazgul's Harad the Haradrim Lancers that Beremir has in mind. But I should give this list of Heroes, to.

Lorgan, Suladan, Yaban (Mahud Chief), Uldor, Khamul (Nazgul # 2), Indur (Nazgul # 7), Pallando, Alatar, Renordin, Mamlek, Shurkta, and Borthand (I added that to this combo)

Harad is indicated in RED

Rhun is indicated in PURPLE

Khand is indicated in YELLOW

Then, Rhun should have a cavalry-trampling chariot version of every non-protective infantry unit (labeling them Wainrider Soldiers, Wainrider Archers, Wainrider Spearmen, Wainrider Pikemen, Wainrider Axemen), then Harad should have the Half-Trolls and Mahud bludgeoners and spearmen and blowpipers, then let Khand have Archers and much-more-varied cavalry, then we should add the Corsairs, then we should add Siege Towers that use spiral-ramping to let cavalry onto walls, then we should make summon istari into summon Nazguls (the ones not involved in MotE), then we should... then we should... *falls half-asleep* help, please...

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#816 Gfire

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 05:18 PM

O.O

I think they have enough units already.

Modding isn't just about adding as many units as possible, remember.
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#817 Emperor of the East

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 05:40 PM

Yep. I knew that already :grin: The mod is about adding realism to the game.

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#818 ttandchotmail

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 10:09 PM

Good ideas EotE :grin:

I think we'll get the faction wroking first ( fortress ) then relese the next beta, do the bug hunt and then look into adding more to the faction, as well as the spellbook overhaul and other matters. :p

Edited by ttandchotmail, 11 August 2009 - 10:10 PM.

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#819 Dant

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 12:46 AM

How about we combine Nazgul's Tech Tree with Beremir's? Like Having Beremir's Powers Tree and Nazgul's two factions in one idea? Plus the Whirlwinds being Rhun-deployed realistically by making them 'sand-nados' (I made that word up. That's funny, my RotSK MotE has a similar power that summons one! What an odd and surprising coincidence... was it Beremir or Robnkarla who invented this power???). In addition, We could give Nazgul's Rhun the archers and royal-guard from Beremir's Rhun, and give Nazgul's Harad the Haradrim Lancers that Beremir has in mind. But I should give this list of Heroes, to.

Lorgan, Suladan, Yaban (Mahud Chief), Uldor, Khamul (Nazgul # 2), Indur (Nazgul # 7), Pallando, Alatar, Renordin, Mamlek, Shurkta, and Borthand (I added that to this combo)

Harad is indicated in RED

Rhun is indicated in PURPLE

Khand is indicated in YELLOW

Then, Rhun should have a cavalry-trampling chariot version of every non-protective infantry unit (labeling them Wainrider Soldiers, Wainrider Archers, Wainrider Spearmen, Wainrider Pikemen, Wainrider Axemen), then Harad should have the Half-Trolls and Mahud bludgeoners and spearmen and blowpipers, then let Khand have Archers and much-more-varied cavalry, then we should add the Corsairs, then we should add Siege Towers that use spiral-ramping to let cavalry onto walls, then we should make summon istari into summon Nazguls (the ones not involved in MotE), then we should... then we should... *falls half-asleep* help, please...



I think Wainrider for Rhun is enough with chariot(they should be able to pick between spearman,archer) like dwarves war wagon..and Rhun Kataphrakts should have unique models like in Third Age Total War mod,as for Harad i think idea is fine already and it according to lore..i don't know about istari but i think they fine as Ring-Hero.

Edited by Dant, 13 August 2009 - 01:25 PM.

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#820 Archon

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 12:27 PM

Agreed.
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