1712 replies to this topic

[Gr1m]

I do however agree that Arnor could use a different force of cavalry. To make them unique, they could have slow speed, but excellent Armour and trample damage, but their weapon damage is pretty lousy because they have shields, and their slow speed makes it difficult for them to out manuver pikemen

I might be confusing terms here, so ignore me if I sound loony.

Low speed and good trample simply don't work together. Trample is for the most part the velocity of the charge into the front rank of infantry, so you need to be have a good charge speed to have any effect.

Drastically simplifying the battlefield to the extent of BFME yields two kinds of melee cavalry - light and heavy. Light cavalry is something like the Rohirrim - lance and a small light shield and relatively light armor to maximize the effect of the initial charge, but actual staying power once their momentum is lost is pretty poor. Heavy is more your Gondorian cavalry - larger, heavier shield and armor and a sword, designed to have better staying power once they are brought to a standstill, but a poor initial charge.

Rohan has the potential to have the best of both worlds if we tweak the axe riders and lancers, but as this is the topic on Arnor, onto that. The Arnor battle-line is heavy armored troops with decent staying power and good support in their archers, but little in the way of countering cavalry, so the Arnorian cavalry would realistically be tailored to that - lighter, swift cavalry designed to harass other mounted troops to prevent their charge being utilized, or harassing monsters like trolls, wargs and other fast-moving beasts, so we're looking at a light cavalry design. Spears to keep distance between the beasts and the rider and his mount, lighter armor and a smaller shield (if any shield at all) and lighter, more flexible armor - a mail cuirass would be good for that purpose, I think.

[dojob]

Or maybe we could just nerf Royal Knights so people dont ban them from their games?

[Lord Aragorn]

I do however agree that Arnor could use a different force of cavalry. To make them unique, they could have slow speed, but excellent Armour and trample damage, but their weapon damage is pretty lousy because they have shields, and their slow speed makes it difficult for them to out manuver pikemen

I might be confusing terms here, so ignore me if I sound loony.

Low speed and good trample simply don't work together. Trample is for the most part the velocity of the charge into the front rank of infantry, so you need to be have a good charge speed to have any effect.

Drastically simplifying the battlefield to the extent of BFME yields two kinds of melee cavalry - light and heavy. Light cavalry is something like the Rohirrim - lance and a small light shield and relatively light armor to maximize the effect of the initial charge, but actual staying power once their momentum is lost is pretty poor. Heavy is more your Gondorian cavalry - larger, heavier shield and armor and a sword, designed to have better staying power once they are brought to a standstill, but a poor initial charge.

Rohan has the potential to have the best of both worlds if we tweak the axe riders and lancers, but as this is the topic on Arnor, onto that. The Arnor battle-line is heavy armored troops with decent staying power and good support in their archers, but little in the way of countering cavalry, so the Arnorian cavalry would realistically be tailored to that - lighter, swift cavalry designed to harass other mounted troops to prevent their charge being utilized, or harassing monsters like trolls, wargs and other fast-moving beasts, so we're looking at a light cavalry design. Spears to keep distance between the beasts and the rider and his mount, lighter armor and a smaller shield (if any shield at all) and lighter, more flexible armor - a mail cuirass would be good for that purpose, I think.

arnor already have light cavalery:rivendell riders and mounted rangers;maybe it should have and a type of heavy cavalery:knights of fornost,with heavy armor,but low speed and a weak trample attack with a good staying power; and think about a mounted hero,pls

[Ring o' Fate]

Well, if we nerf the Knights, we will need a new MHH.

Edited by Ring of Fate, 17 May 2009 - 06:05 PM.

[Uruk King]

The Steelbowmen of course.

[dojob]

Well, if we nerf the Knights, we will need a new MHH.

You can have MHH that are nerfed and aren't completely OP, you know ;P

[Ring o' Fate]

The Steelbowmen of course.

That just sounds more OP to me for some reason.

[Uruk King]

The Steelbowmen of course.

That just sounds more OP to me for some reason.

Well they would have some sort of weakness like low armour and poor melee, if taken by surprise, they could be swept away be cavalry.

[Gr1m]

arnor already have light cavalery:rivendell riders and mounted rangers;maybe it should have and a type of heavy cavalery:knights of fornost,with heavy armor,but low speed and a weak trample attack with a good staying power; and think about a mounted hero,pls

Well, the mounted rangers are cavalry archers - that's a different category altogether. As for the Rivendell cavalry - I forgot to factor them in, but as is we could use them to argue that Arnor doesn't need another cavalry unit because they already have one.

I think we need to look at Arnor and her allies techtrees as seperate entities for now before bringing the whole into consideration. IMO there's a large number of issues in the Allies system that need to be brought up eventually.

Well they would have some sort of weakness like low armour and poor melee, if taken by surprise, they could be swept away be cavalry.

Pretty much. They'd be archer specialists, probably without a toggle. Think of them as Ithilien or Dunedain rangers, except a little more armor, and that pretty much fits the bill. Training to use a steelbow well wouldn't leave much room for proficiency in other weapons imo.

Plus it'd make them more unique as MHH if they were strictly ranged specialists.

[Hasfusel]

Low speed and good trample simply don't work together. Trample is for the most part the velocity of the charge into the front rank of infantry, so you need to be have a good charge speed to have any effect.

Remember the BFME1 Swordsmen/Knight combos? Ahh, never mind...

I'd reverse things slightly with Arnor: basic cavalry are the heavy, expensive Arnor knights, with the Elves as elite light cavalry much better for destroying resource structures and running away, or sweeping round the back of the enemy lines and crushing archers. The Elf cavalry would be faster and more resistant to ordinary slash damage while dealing extra damage themselves, while the Arnor knights would be more heavily armored against Pikes and Arrows, with better trample, making them better for headalong charges. The Arnor cavalry would remain useful throughout the game, while the Elves become available later on and at a slightly greater price for special work.

Steelbowmen: Nice idea for elite archers. This would be interesting, because so far almost all the elite archers are either horseback or rangers. Steelbowmen would be the first heavy versions of basic archers. They'd still suck against cavalry, and would be slower than normal archers due to heavy armor, but they'd do stronger damage than basic archers at a greater ranger, albeit with a slower reload rate, and have a stronger melée attack for when the enemy catch up. Perfect for rounding out a melée army that doesn't have the numbers to protect them.

I love the idea of unique upgrades. Here's an interesting idea;

Upgrade: Banner of Reunited Arnor
Researched at Lvl.3 Blacksmith for 1500, requires Istari Allegiance (?).
Costs 500 to apply.
When applied to Arnor Knights, they become Royal Knights, which are better in everything, but especially at killing monsters and other cavalry. Royal Knights are NOT like Knights of Dol Amroth. They aren't hero hordes, just really tough cavalry. At Lvl.5 they get a Royal Charge ability that doubles crush and resistance to pikes.
When applied to Arnor Archers, they become Steelbowmen, mentioned above.
When applied to Arnor Soldiers, they become Royal Guardians, which are slower but better in everything else and especially in resisting cavalry and monsters. They get a Royal Stand ability at Lvl.5, which doubles resistance to trample, armor and damage.

This way, in relatively late-game when you have Istari Allegiance (which needs more features to be worth the cost anyway) and lots of resources, you can upgrade basic troops into elite specialists.

[Eärendur]

Neither do i. But i think Anor shouldn't have cavalry because:

Early Anor would have had a massive army, state of the art Armour, fress men, lots of reasources, food ect. But during their war with Angmar they were slowly worn down, constantly seiged and attacked. With that happening on a regular occasion, Anor wouldn't want to spend precious resources feeding and maintaining horses, so they would have kept the higher quality horses for the military captains and kings, then killed or let loose the other horses.

That being the case, is in game Anor at the late stage of the war with Angmar, or the early stage? I would personally want it to be the early stage because you would get the real Dunedin armies, but its most likely late war Anor.

Personally, I would much rather if it was an Arnor from early-on in the war with Angmar. I know that it might not make perfect sense, but gameplay-wise it feels better to me if it was Arnor at the hight of her power versus Angmar at the hight of her power, I know that that means that Arnor is near the start of the war while Angmar is near the end of the war, but in my opinion, that's the only way to balance the two factions. If they are kept at exactly the same point time, then you either have a super-strong Arnor and an Angmar that is just starting to build up it's strength, or an OP Angmar and a war-ravaged and declining Arnor.
So it's better, in my opinion, to have both Arnor and Angmar at their peaks.

[Anri1]

I actualy would like to see more men units in Arnor. Arnor pikemen(alike to gondor pikemen), and Arnor knights(simular to gondor knights). Maybe one more building must be for Arnor cav.
The fact that It were not the best times of Arnor doesn't means that some soldier classes just disappeared.

[dojob]

Low speed and good trample simply don't work together. Trample is for the most part the velocity of the charge into the front rank of infantry, so you need to be have a good charge speed to have any effect.

Remember the BFME1 Swordsmen/Knight combos? Ahh, never mind...

I'd reverse things slightly with Arnor: basic cavalry are the heavy, expensive Arnor knights, with the Elves as elite light cavalry much better for destroying resource structures and running away, or sweeping round the back of the enemy lines and crushing archers. The Elf cavalry would be faster and more resistant to ordinary slash damage while dealing extra damage themselves, while the Arnor knights would be more heavily armored against Pikes and Arrows, with better trample, making them better for headalong charges. The Arnor cavalry would remain useful throughout the game, while the Elves become available later on and at a slightly greater price for special work.

But by the time elf cav can do their raiding, the other player will probably have better pikes and defenses, so they'd be kinda useless as light raiders, which are much more useful in the early game.

Honestly, if we absolutely have to get rid of Arnor KoDAs and replace them with a more normal cavalry, then we may as well make Arnor Knights exactly the same as current Gondor knights, and no, I'm not being sarcastic about this.

What I mean is that the current Gondor knights, unlike the knights of previous betas, aren't as good as they were before because of their smaller hordes; so you now need to pay 1200 resources for the same number of cavalry that used to cost 600 resources, which means you can't really cav rush with Gondor any more because of the time it takes to get a good raiding force. If we were to restore Gondor knights to their old horde sizes (and increase their cost and training time a bit to balance them out) and add Arnor knights that are like the current Gondor knights but with different skins, then we could have units that are not only unique from eachother, but also fit in well within their own factions; since Gondor only has 1 cav unit (not counting KoDAs), it makes sense for their cav to be very good all-around units that are viable throughout the game, while Arnor cav wouldn't be quite as good because of their late cavalry and because they're more infantry-focused.

Now, if Arnor cavalry were like the current knights, then they wouldn't necessarily be light cav, but could instead support your troops by trampling infantry, killing wargs, and doing a bit of raiding, but they wouldn't be a major part of your force because of their low numbers.


If we were to add a new cavalry unit to Arnor, here's the changes I'd like to see:

-Restore Gondor knights to their old horde sizes and increase their prices and build times to balance them out.

-Make at least 1 of the Hobbit units good vs buildings (or give them pillage/sabotage type abilities) so that they can be viable as early raiders.*

-Add Arnor Knights to lvl2 barracks and make them like current Gondor knights

-Maybe buff Elf cav a bit to make them more useful later on.

-Add steelbowmen as a new MHH

*In combination with some of my other Hobbit ideas, we could have Hobbits that are no longer spammable and only useful for their spears, but would also serve a specific role for Arnor.

Edited by dojob, 19 May 2009 - 06:46 PM.

[Uruk King]

I would rather have Men Spearmen, Hobbits as raiders and supports, their pirchforks can't be too strong against cavalry, because of the Hobbits smal size and the speed that the horses ar charging at, grated it's enough to severly injure them but not kill them, a pitchfork is too crude a weopon for that

[{IRS}Athos]

What about Took Bowmen? Are they still an option (i.e. getting resources for damaging units)?

[Eärendur]

How about this:

-Make the Arnor Barracks train Arnor Sentinels at lv. 1, Arnor Soldiers at lv. 2, and Arnor Spearmen at lv. 3.

-Replace the Hobbit House with an Arnor Training Yards building (which trains Arnor Archers at lv. 1, Amon Sul Mounted Knights at lv. 2, and Annuminas Steelbowmen at lv. 3) , and make the Hobbit House into a Fortress Expansion. That way you have to build a fortress in order to train Hobbits and reduces their spamability.

-Make the Rivendel Riders into an earlier-game cavalry unit. (High speed, low armor, high efficiency versus structures and archers)

-Add Amon Sul Mounted Knights (trained at a level two Arnor Training Yards) which could be a late-game cavalry unit. (Large horde [approximately 5 units long and 3 rows deep] but high cost and slow build-time, heavy armor, heavy damage, less susceptible to pikes.)

[dojob]

How can elf cav be early units when u need to pay more than 1000 resources just to be able to build their barracks? And how would amon sul knights be late-game when it's usually fairly easy to get lvl2 buildings?

[Excuse_me_princess]

How about this:

-Make the Arnor Barracks train Arnor Sentinels at lv. 1, Arnor Soldiers at lv. 2, and Arnor Spearmen at lv. 3.

-Replace the Hobbit House with an Arnor Training Yards building (which trains Arnor Archers at lv. 1, Amon Sul Mounted Knights at lv. 2, and Annuminas Steelbowmen at lv. 3) , and make the Hobbit House into a Fortress Expansion. That way you have to build a fortress in order to train Hobbits and reduces their spamability.

-Make the Rivendel Riders into an earlier-game cavalry unit. (High speed, low armor, high efficiency versus structures and archers)

-Add Amon Sul Mounted Knights (trained at a level two Arnor Training Yards) which could be a late-game cavalry unit. (Large horde [approximately 5 units long and 3 rows deep] but high cost and slow build-time, heavy armor, heavy damage, less susceptible to pikes.)

Love it, just love it!

[Excuse_me_princess]

Low speed and good trample simply don't work together. Trample is for the most part the velocity of the charge into the front rank of infantry, so you need to be have a good charge speed to have any effect.

Remember the BFME1 Swordsmen/Knight combos? Ahh, never mind...

I'd reverse things slightly with Arnor: basic cavalry are the heavy, expensive Arnor knights, with the Elves as elite light cavalry much better for destroying resource structures and running away, or sweeping round the back of the enemy lines and crushing archers. The Elf cavalry would be faster and more resistant to ordinary slash damage while dealing extra damage themselves, while the Arnor knights would be more heavily armored against Pikes and Arrows, with better trample, making them better for headalong charges. The Arnor cavalry would remain useful throughout the game, while the Elves become available later on and at a slightly greater price for special work.

Steelbowmen: Nice idea for elite archers. This would be interesting, because so far almost all the elite archers are either horseback or rangers. Steelbowmen would be the first heavy versions of basic archers. They'd still suck against cavalry, and would be slower than normal archers due to heavy armor, but they'd do stronger damage than basic archers at a greater ranger, albeit with a slower reload rate, and have a stronger melée attack for when the enemy catch up. Perfect for rounding out a melée army that doesn't have the numbers to protect them.

I love the idea of unique upgrades. Here's an interesting idea;

Upgrade: Banner of Reunited Arnor
Researched at Lvl.3 Blacksmith for 1500, requires Istari Allegiance (?).
Costs 500 to apply.
When applied to Arnor Knights, they become Royal Knights, which are better in everything, but especially at killing monsters and other cavalry. Royal Knights are NOT like Knights of Dol Amroth. They aren't hero hordes, just really tough cavalry. At Lvl.5 they get a Royal Charge ability that doubles crush and resistance to pikes.
When applied to Arnor Archers, they become Steelbowmen, mentioned above.
When applied to Arnor Soldiers, they become Royal Guardians, which are slower but better in everything else and especially in resisting cavalry and monsters. They get a Royal Stand ability at Lvl.5, which doubles resistance to trample, armor and damage.

This way, in relatively late-game when you have Istari Allegiance (which needs more features to be worth the cost anyway) and lots of resources, you can upgrade basic troops into elite specialists.

Very nice, love it too!

[Hasfusel]

But by the time elf cav can do their raiding, the other player will probably have better pikes and defenses, so they'd be kinda useless as light raiders, which are much more useful in the early game.

Honestly, if we absolutely have to get rid of Arnor KoDAs and replace them with a more normal cavalry, then we may as well make Arnor Knights exactly the same as current Gondor knights, and no, I'm not being sarcastic about this.

What I mean is that the current Gondor knights, unlike the knights of previous betas, aren't as good as they were before because of their smaller hordes; so you now need to pay 1200 resources for the same number of cavalry that used to cost 600 resources, which means you can't really cav rush with Gondor any more because of the time it takes to get a good raiding force. If we were to restore Gondor knights to their old horde sizes (and increase their cost and training time a bit to balance them out) and add Arnor knights that are like the current Gondor knights but with different skins, then we could have units that are not only unique from eachother, but also fit in well within their own factions; since Gondor only has 1 cav unit (not counting KoDAs), it makes sense for their cav to be very good all-around units that are viable throughout the game, while Arnor cav wouldn't be quite as good because of their late cavalry and because they're more infantry-focused.

Now, if Arnor cavalry were like the current knights, then they wouldn't necessarily be light cav, but could instead support your troops by trampling infantry, killing wargs, and doing a bit of raiding, but they wouldn't be a major part of your force because of their low numbers.

I agree with the Gondor Knights thing. One thing I dislike about the mod is the smaller hordes, which devalues many units.

You're kind of right about the elves too. Maybe the Elf calvalry could just be elite horse archers? Their high speed, range and damage makes them excel against enemy cavalry and hand infantry, with damage bonuses against monsters. They can also ride with your Arnor knights to back them up against enemy cavalry or pikemen. They're more expensive than Arnor Knights by a fraction, but they can't recieve Banner of Reunited Arnor.

Here's my final draft for Arnor Knights:

They are medium-heavy cavalry that is well balanced, with emphasis towards being strongly armored. Like Gondor Knights, but stronger, much more armored, slightly slower, and more expensive. They're great at charging enemy lines, breaking up defenses, and opening a battle. They aren't as great for chasing units, but can hold their own against pikemen more than most cavalry units. When upgraded with the Banner of Reunited Arnor, they become the really elite heavy cavalry Royal Knights, which are stronger, slightly faster and take heavy armor and damage to an extreme for cavalry. Royal Knights can crush entire armies when upgraded in large numbers.

I like my Banner of Reunited Arnor idea as a upgrade. It transforms Arnor's medium, fairly balanced basic units into heavily armored elite troops.

Arnor Archers: Fairly balanced archers. More or less the same as Gondor Archers. Good armor and damage.
Steelbowmen: Banner of Reunited Arnor upgrade. Heavy archers with great armor and damage, plus a passive knockback effect at Lvl.2. Better melée attack than most archers, which is useful when they get caught by enemy infantry, which is quite possible due to their relatively low speed. Can mow down enemy heavy units.

Arnor Soldiers: Basic sword infantry. Slightly better against monsters than most units.
Royal Armsmen: Banner of Reunited Arnor upgrade. Elite swordsmen infantry that is resistant to crush, heavily armored and better against monsters and cavalry than most units. Great against basic enemy infantry, but not so much against pikemen.

I've already gone over Knights.

Here's templates for the Dunedain, still a little sketchy;

Dunedain Rangers: Basic ranger units that stealth in the woods and have a Longshot power at Lvl.2. Costs 250? 350? Better range, damage, attack speed and movement speed than Arnor Archers but not so much health. Steelbowmen still have the best range and damage, but are much slower. Rangers have low health and armor, so keep them for ambushes. Can be upgraded with Cloak of Shadows.

Dunedain Foresters: Ranger swordsmen. Costs 400 from a Lvl.2 Dunedain Camp. Fairly low health and armor. Great speed and melée damage, and can stealth in the woods. At lvl.2, they get a passive knockdown ability. Can be upgraded with Cloak of Shadows if you've purchased it. Highly effective when grouped with Rangers.

Dunedain Guildmaster: Costs 750 from a Lvl.3 Dunedain Camp. Single fast stealthy unit that can toggle between bows and swords. Excels against heroes and monsters but has low health, getting murdered by archers or cavalry. Great damage. Can be upgraded with Cloak of Shadows. At Lvl.2, they gain a temporary Blade Skill ability that doubles their armor and damage against heroes, allowing them to take on a hero without getting killed so easy. At Lvl. 5, he can use a cripple attack. It's not our of the question he could ride a horse at a higher level, so that the model isn't wasted.

Cloak of Shadows is an upgrade that can be purchased from a Lvl.3 Dunedain camp. It costs 500 to upgrade and 200 to apply. It improves stealth, allows the unit to stealth out of the forest when standing still, and allows the unit to become invisible while standing still in a forest.

Edited by Hasfusel, 22 May 2009 - 11:15 AM.