1712 replies to this topic

[dojob]

They help make Arnor unique from Gondor.

[CIL]

Morinehtaur should not be with MotE. Do you even know the Sindar translation for his name?

[mike_]

I only know the Blue Wizards as Alatar and Pallando.
@dojob- That is true. However, it's seeming to me that this Arnor faction is becoming unique from Middle-Earth.. xD
Cheers,
-mike

[CIL]

I find it easy but stupid and far to unrealistic to spam 'pults with a hero and a few troops to escort them. Hence, cavalry is useless to me unless I want fun, long-lasting battle. I toy with my foes lest I want to win. Also, will you answer my Arveleg/Argeleb question in prior posts? What direction is the mod leaning towards for skins?

Edited by Crazy Intellectual Liberal, 24 March 2008 - 05:03 AM.

[Devon]

I don't really get istari either, but imo its better than a boat power that wouldnt be used most of the time. No offence to the idea, but I think it just wouldnt work As to pony riders, rob mentioned them somewhere as early cav. Hobbits do ride ponies even though they dislike horses. And CIL, rob only reads these boards every couple days I think, so give it a little time or ask him on msn if you see him.

[mike_]

Brothers From the South. Allows the construction of Gondorian military ships from Ports (? is that what they're referred to as? Don't remember, haven't dealed with BFME2 in quite a while), which would be slower, yet cheaper and more powerful than Elven ships (which should/could be purchased with the Elven Allies/Power/Thing). Also, would give them a pair of new cavalry units - the Gondorian Errand Rider, which would be similar to the Rohan Outrider (FYI, very fast, spammable, weakish armour, weakish attack, low trample, far vision, wield a sword). The second would be the Knights of Minas Tirith - slowish move speed for cavalry, high attack, high armour, strong trample, wield lances and shields. This way, you have both Tolkein-esque and gameplay-filling units. That being the main 'upgrade', possibly you (the player) would have access to Gondor infantry - ideally spearmen and bowmen.

True - a power for two Wizards would be more useful than a 'boat power.'
However, bear with me, please:
When I picture Arnor's military in her last days, I picture a few hundred, largely scattered Men. However, these would be the survivors of Arnor's years-long War with Angmar - the best fighters. Possibly, the purest of Numenorean stock. Perhaps some groups would be united under a solitary captain, though until Gondor made landfall in the North they would be by-and-large scattered throughout the realm, going every which way.
Then, Gondor would have sent whatever units that had survived the Fall of Fornost (and thus Arnor itself) under their command. Any of the Elves of Mithlond that would have chosen to march with them (led by Cirdan) would have joined with them then. A small company of archers from the Shire are said to have linked up by this point.
So, then, the combined force would have marched north and east from the Havens at Mithlond, gathering more of the scattered units of Dunedain.
Finally, they would have reached the West-Plains of Fornost - and seen the massive army of the Witch-King of Angmar, razing Fornost.
Soon, the forces would meet in open warfare. Heavy infantrymen of Gondor, Elven archers, and Dunedain veterans all would have fought under a single banner - against the forces of Angmar, commanded by the Witch-King himself.
Later, the cavalry of Gondor, led by Earnur, the Crown Prince, came upon the north-flank of the Witch-King's army and shattered it. At the same moment, a coalition of Elves of Rivendell and Lorien sent by Elrond but commanded by Glorfindel attacked the east flank by circling through the Trollshaws.
Caught between an effective hammer and anvil, the Orcs, Wildmen, and whatever else the Witch-King had ensared would have been faced with two decisions - fight or flight. However, with the Host of the West (Mithlond Elves, Gondor's infantry and auxilary units, and surviving Dunedain) on their West Flank, Gondorian cavalry cutting down their ranks on their North, and Noldor and Silvan forces in the East, they had only one real choice - flight.
---
So, yes. That's everything I can think of concerning Arnor's military 'might' during her last days. I'll lay it out one more time:
Basic Units:
-Mainly Gondorian infantry - spears and bows.
-Mithlond Elves - pikes and likely axemen and bowmen.
-Hobbit archers - said to be excellent shots, though of course wouldn't be anywhere near the class of Elven or Gondorian archers.
Second Tier Units:
-Gondorian cavalry - heavily armoured, lance-wielding men on horses.
-Dunedain skirmishers - likely not heavily armoured, but probably had many swordsmen and not many bowmen.
Final Tier Units:
-Noldor infantry - probably had arms and armour similar to that used in the Last Alliance. Being Noldor, were definitely elite.
-Silvan archers - most likely Marchwardens of Lorien, thus brilliant archers.
---
There...I've typed up everything that comes to mind when I think of Arnor's military in her last hours.
Which, comes to a coalition of Gondorians, Elves, Hobbits, and Dunedain.
Cheers,
-mike
EDIT: Sorry if it seems like I'm being an ass, but this is a great mod and I'm doing everything I can to keep it within the realms of Tolkein sanity - which until now, it has.

Edited by elfhelm.., 24 March 2008 - 02:52 PM.

[Devon]

You're not being an ass, I appreciate the history lesson The problem currently is that Arnor cannot get any cav without either getting their barracks to level three to get the op legendary knights, or buying the elf subfaction and ranking that barracks to level 2. Since the knights are going to be balanced, this leaved them pretty disadvantaged when it comes to cav, and we'd like to solve it while keeping uniqueness between factions. So, I'd either say put the elven cav at a lvl 1 barracks to make them more available, or add some kind of cheap underpowered cav, which is where the hobbit rider idea came up.

[mike_]

Well in that case I'd suggest having the primary cavalry unit being an Elven horseman that can be heavily upgraded as the game progresses. Maybe something like this:
Silvan Riders.
Pros:
-Good numbers (four (4) to six (6) per battalion (?))
-Swap weapon (start with bow)
-Strong range, attack, and move speed.
Cons:
-Very low health and armour.
-Need more experience than average units when leveling up.
-Longish build time (? may need something 'better')
Upgrades:
Lance. Equips them with a lance, which they may swap to from their bow. More powerful against other cavalry and monsters than infantry.
Shield. Gives them a huge armour boost against archers; negates the use of the bow (only purchasable one "Lance" upgrade is purchased)
Heavy Armour. Gives them a large, general armour boost.
Extra Training. Allows them to fire while moving for thirty (30) seconds (maybe less?)
---
So...there you go. I know that the majority of Silvan Elves lived East of the Misty Mountains, but the House of Elrond (aka Rivendell) is said to have been "open to all Free People."
Basically, this would give Arnor a very versatile cavalry unit that can progress into the role of a fast, mounted archer or a heavy cavalryman.
Cheers,
-mike

Edited by elfhelm.., 24 March 2008 - 03:47 PM.

[Devon]

Hmm...that would be good, except for one or two problems I think. I'm not sure rob ever got the shoot while moving thing working, so idk if that could work. The second is that 12 in a horde...thats a lot. Normal arnor hordes are 8 I think for basic units and 4 or 5 for elite. Or maybe its 10 for basic, idk.

[mike_]

Ah, well, I've never been quite up to date with BFME2 specifics - horde sizes, names and usues of neutral buildings, etc.
So..I'd say four would be fine for them. Maybe six, as they'd be relatively weak from the get-go.
Cheers,
-mike

[Devon]

You'd be right if it was bfme2, but rj reduced sized down to more bfme1 like settings

[Uruk King]

You know Arnor can't recruit Elves or Dunedain on Fortress Maps, (if they are the fortress). And Arnor's standard units are:

Arnor Soldiers
Arnor Archers
Royal Knights
Hobbit Sherrifs
Hobbit Pitchforkers

So that kinda rules out fortress style play in the game. Unless extra atandard arnor units are added.
Suggestions:

* Cardolan Riders (light Cavalry)
* Cardolan Axemen (Light infantry, high damage)
* Fornost Guards (Heavy Spearmen)
* Arthedain Knights (Arnor's Cavalry Arm)

It's just that Arnor can't advance through a battle without a strong bastion of Elves or Dunedain in the game, Arnor should be a bit more independant of those forces for a while, but the player still has the option to buy them. The Elves and Dunedain should serve more as optional units, or the jam on the toast so to speak.

[mike_]

That's true. Arnor did last for several centuries against the forces of Angmar all by itself.
However, they were not able to completely overthrow their opponent without help from their allies - something that should be remembered when working on this faction.
Cheers,
-mike

[Myrdin]

w8 a sec. soo if i follow this right, you want them to get some Gondor alliance ? well they were " brethren " cities. But why you dont like the istary ? at least its something unique.

[mike_]

I've already said why I dislike the the Istari Allies.
However, for the sake of an argument, I'll say it again. There are only two real connections between the Istari and Arnor, and they are:
1. Each of the Five Istari arrived in Middle-Earth from the Grey Havens at Mithlond. This port later sent troops to aid Arnor, though none of the Istari are said to have personally helped them.
2. The Istari were sent to Middle-Earth for the aid of all of the Free Peoples, including Arnor.
Oh, and Gondor and Arnor were sister countries, united by common ancestry and a 'High King.' Not brethen cities.
Cheers,
-mike

[mike_]

That would suit them. It's seen in the Third Age that while Gondor became an expansionist empire, Arnor was more or less forced to try and keep what was it's own.
And it's also said in 'The Disaster of the Gladden Fields', found in "Unfinished Tales", that the ratio of Dunedain deaths to those of Orcs in combat were three to five Orcs per Man.
Cheers,
-mike

[Uruk King]

That's true. Arnor did last for several centuries against the forces of Angmar all by itself.
However, they were not able to completely overthrow their opponent without help from their allies - something that should be remembered when working on this faction.
Cheers,
-mike

I'm not suggesting remove the alliances but giving the template faction more units. There's a lot more to Arnor than meets the eye, than portrayed in the game, so far.

and furthermore, I think the Istari power is a fine addition, it helps me against Brutal AI.

[mike_]

Yes, but it has nothing to do with Arnor as a faction. If anything, it should be available to all Good Factions.
Wait...maybe there's an idea in there...
Cheers,
-mike

[Dalf32]

im out for 1 afternoon and this is what i get; an entire page to read through! lol
all im gonna say for now is if you dont like the istari power (i dont think it can realistically go to all good factions) do you have an alternative that suits arnor better for you?
i like your cavalry idea elfhelm but are you implying with the lances upgrade that they would need the upgrade before they could switch to melee or would that jsut be a further upgrade to strengthen their melee? because if it is required before they can switch then that wont work because that would only give them archer cavalry which simply arent the same as lance/sword cavalry.
also you keep referring to this as the very end of arnor, but we have some leeway here. we musnt restrict ourselves to just the very end, but instead the entire period they were fighting angmar (unless that is what you meant...)
definetly cannot make it necessary to get an alliance before arnor gets cavalry because they would be at a serious disadvantage then (expensive-ish alliances + building costs).

i probably missed a bunch but whatever