1109 replies to this topic

[Scryer]

I would like to see the an Evil Inn faction like the southern fiefdoms. I don't get any other alliance when I am good. The others just can't match up.

I 'half-agree' with you here. The reason that I slightly disagree with you is because it makes the Good Inn factions unique only to the Good faction. I believe that for some things, the Evil factions can mirror the Good factions bu maybe not in this case.

[Dalf32]

well the sf inn faction is as close to what rob initially wanted for the inn system as we have so far. its still not where he wants it (no heros, upgrades dont work iirc, etc). i believe the plan has always been to shove the unused skins (including campaign skins iirc) and make a little faction out of them.
so if everything went to plan and the mod was 'finished' tomorrow then i would think that all the inn factions would take the current sf inn faction a step further.

[Hasfusel]

Even so, you could have an Umbar or a Wildmen minifaction. At least, one of these types of units should be always trainable out of Evil inns, the same way as Hobbits.

Here's what I think you could have as the Hero scheme for Inns:

Ally with Southern Fiefdoms: (unique because no other race has their heroes by default)

I: Baron Highlake (make him up using the Boromir model, some assorted powers and a different skin, he can be a minor noble in the Southern Fiefdoms)

II: Robert, Captain of Dol Amroth (him too, using the Damrod model, some assorted powers and a different skin)

III: Prince Imrahil (removed from Gondor hero list and given extra powers such as Leadership and Glorious Charge)

Ally with Rohan:

I: Hama

II: Gamling

III: Éomer

Ally with the Elves:

I: Arwen

II: Haldir

III: Legolas (given Leadership to balance with Gimli)

Ally with the Dwarves:

I: Prince Bard

II: Glóin

III: Gimli

Ally with Isengard:

I: Uglúk

II: Sharku

III: Lurtz

Ally with Mordor:

I: Snaga

II: Gothmog

III: Mouth of Sauron

Ally with Goblins:

I: Krashnak (as normal hero)

II: Azog

III: Shelob

Ally with Rhun:

I: Vorgel (the Easterling Captain)

II: Voniel (the CAH for Isengard I mentioned earlier, let's say he origined from Rhun as a sorcerer. He has Wizard Blast at lvl. 1, Lighting at lvl. 4, and Convert Allegience at lvl. 8)

III: Morinehtar

Ally with Harad:

I: Jahumeh (the Mahúd Chieftain)

II: Prince Aram (the CAH for Harad I mentioned earlier, with Toggle Weapon at lvl. 1, Leadership at lvl. 4, Summon Haradrim Guard at lvl. 6 and Dominate at lvl. 8)

III: Romestamo

[Devon]

The idea is not to have repeat heroes, I think...

[Ed Of The 3rd Kind]

I had an idea for Angmar, basically because I hate the units, that we edit the existing cave troll models, and if needs be add armor to them, I had a though about the Snow-Trolls (if we're using a re-edited Cave Troll model) that we could redo the skin to make the troll look albino, hence giving them a sense of why they were called "Snow-Trolls", there are a million and one reference pics on the net for trolls, just want to put it past you guys to see what you think. This would also give the trolls a sense of continuity through the factions as atm Angmar trolls look like something envisaged by Nikelodeon!

I really think the overall image of Angmar needs to be given a huge makeover in order to make it flow, there is no one unit from the vanilla game in Angmar that I see flowing with the rest of the factions.

Edited by Ed Of The 3rd Kind, 30 October 2008 - 03:38 PM.

[{IP} Aridor]

I agree.

[Scryer]

I agree as well..... Didn't Mike mention that he wanted to propose a whole new change to Angmar?

[Devon]

*suggests reading about ten pages ago*

[Scryer]

*suggests reading about ten pages ago*

Hmm, I was thinking about a different thing... Nevermind now.

Edited by Scryer, 30 October 2008 - 11:22 PM.

[mike_]

*saves trouble*

Tar-Herumor, Champion of Fornost.
-A Black Numenorean general, Tar-Herumor. He is descended from a great Lord of the Haradrim from the Second Age, who fought alongside his brother Ferumir against the Last Alliance of Elves and Men. He is a master of siege warfare, and spent the first eighty years of his adulthood honing his skills in constant war with the Snow-Men of Forochel and the Orcs of the Misty Mountains. Most recently, however, he has allied himself with a new Dark Lord; the Witch-king of Angmar, Chief Servant of Sauron the Enemy. In Angmar's War with Arnor, he commanded the assault upon the walls of Fornost, and won great praise from the Witch-king. Despite his ancestry, the long years of endless conflict have begun to take their tole on the aging warrior; though a pure-bred Numenorean, all Men will succumb to the "Gift of Illuvatar". He wields a longsword, a shield, and wears heavy armour.
Rank One.
-Mount. Mounts an armoured, black horse.
Rank Three.
-The Puppet-Master. Leadership; all nearby units gain a thirty percent increase in movement speed and experience. In addition to this, all allied Siege Weapons near him gain a fifty percent attack speed and damage boost.
Rank Three.
-Dark Arts. Heals nearby units and heroes.
Rank Six.
-The King's Men. Grants experience to all units in a radius.
Rank Eight.
-A Cloud of Serpents. Calls down a large volley of arrows and several catapult stones which bombard a specified area.

Units
Orc Warriors.
-Standard Orc warriors..though, unlike Mordor, can be upgraded with Heavy Armour and Forged Blades.
Orc Trackers.
-Orcs with bows...while they're still crap archers, can be upgraded with Heavy Armour. Also, use Poisoned Arrows against units and Flaming Arrows against structures - they gain access to that once they reach rank two.
Outlaw Brigands.
-A mix of Wildmen of Dunland, Rhudaur Hillmen, etc. Anyway, toggle between spears and bows. Have strong health and attack, but relatively weak armor. Also move quite fast and are stealthed when in trees upon reaching rank two.
Were-wolf of Forochel.
-A single unit, only useful in melee combat. As you could guess, a werewolf - though not like what you're likely used to. Instead of toggling from an ordinary Man to a...hairier Man, stays as a monstrous, bipedal, ferocious wolf.
Emissaries of the Iron Crown.
-Vampires..basically a large, humanoid bat. Useful mainly for scouting, causing fear in enemy troops, and providing air support in combat if forced. Acts as a miniature Nazgul on Fell Beast. Like the Were-wolves, single units.
Black Numenorean.
-Single, Captain unit. Provides leadership to nearby troops while creating negative effects in enemy ones. Wields a large, claymore-like sword, and gets a heavy armour upgrade upon reaching a certain rank - three, maybe five.
Mire-Wights.
-Slaved to a building, the "Fell Haunt" for lack of a better name. Take away enemy leadership effects, and attack enemy troops in melee combat - pretty much exactly like the Barrow-Wights found ingame.
Wolf-Brood.
-The Dire Wolves found ingame, except the horde structure is less of an ordered block and more of a...horde also, upon leveling up, spawns a scaled-up Wolf Chieftan to act as the banner carrier.

[Jaguar6]

Here is my idea for Angmar's unit list...
Orc Warriors: Basic Orc infantry armed with various melee weapons/shields. Unlike Mordor Orcs they can get upgrades.
Orc Archers: Basic ranged Orc infantry armed with bows. Unlike Mordor Orcs they can get upgrades.
Orc Spearmen: Basic Orc infantry armed with spears, pikes, and various pointy things along with shields. Unlike Mordor Orcs they can get upgrades.
Rhudaur Hillmen: Light Rhudaur infantry armed with spears, and the ability to toggle to axes/swords.
Rhudaur Hunters: Light Rhudaur infantry armed with bows.
Rhudaur Champions: Heavy infantry armed with double handed axes from Rhudaur.
Warriors of Carn Dum: Heavily armoured men from Carn Dum armed with swords and shields.
Captain Carn Dum: A single heavily armoured soldier from Carn Dum armed with a double handed sword, and able to use some special "Hero" abilities.
Wolf Brood: Like the Dire Wolves already in the game, but with a better skin.
Snow Troll: A single lightly armoured Troll unit that comes wielding a mattock.
Hill Troll: A single heavily armoured Troll unit that uses a pike.
Sorcerer: Same unit as the one ingame, even though I hate them.
Barrow Wright: Either single unit or in battalions of three that have ancestral armour and swords from the kings of Arnor.

I like the Were-Wolf and Vampire ideas, but I think that they should be summons

Edited by Jaguar6, 01 November 2008 - 02:50 PM.

[rjorrin28]

Maybe we could get rid of the trolls? I hate the way they are used in Angmar.

[{IRS}Athos]

I have to agree with that.

[Gr1m]

Ideas come from the prospect of a complete rebuild of the Angmar faction - take it or leave it as you please.

Imo, angmar should behave as a intermediate between the heavy infantary forces of isengard and the lighter infantry supported by monsters that you get with the goblins and mordor for the forces of evil. Angmar should again - like the forces of evil as a whole, be heavily infantry based with lighter cavalry/monster roles.

The infantry could be divided into two levels - uruks and wild men of gundabad and the Hillmen respectively, and Black Numenorians either corrupted and swayed to evil by Angmar. Design-wise, the Gundabad orcs should have a feel of Isengard influence to them, and maybe even reflect this in their armor and weapon design. Equipment-wise, I visualize these orcs as being equipped with heavy cleavers - like Isengard, but larger, heavier blades that are less well balanced, iron helms, kite-shaped tower shields and leather shirts or cuirasses, maybe made from warg hide. You could potentially have the armor upgrade for these orcs instead work similar to the cavalry shields upgrades of gondor and rohan, allowing them some protection against dunedain rangers and arnor archers. Archers would be equipped with lurtz-influenced high tension longbows - powerful, but bad accuracy and slower rate of fire? imo, they'd also be fairly quick at marching pace, allowing players to use them in flanking maneuvres, and possibly even give them a bullrush-styled attack. They'd probably be devestating against Elves.

OF course, this all pretty much gears Angmar's proposed basic infantry for anti-archer and supportive roles, as they'd lack the hardiness of seasoned soldiers to hold the battle line. And that's where the black numenorians come in as mainline infantry for mid to late game. They'd don well crafted mail shirts and cuirasses, albeit made of iron and coloured a dull grey or darker - hence the term 'black numenorian' being a visual thing as well - and equip broad or longswords and medium shields in an Arnor-influenced style. Helms would be winged, sort of like the Gondor tower guards, though made of dark iron and adorned with black feathers. Shields would be adorned with the symbol of Angmar, or maybe the crown element of the Witch-King's helm.

As for pikemen, I don't really feel the need for them - arnor's got little to no melee cavalry anyway. Still, if you feel the need for them, you could always make black numenorians have a pikemen battalion as well - it'd have to be elite anti-cavalry. Considering the lack of cavalry with arnor, there's no real need for angmar to have a early game pikemen role.

Cavalry and monster roles should both be filled, albeit with a stronger emphasis on monsters. Trolls definately, though they would rely heavily on other troops supporting them and protecting them from harm - maybe even a twist on the Herald has a Goblin tamer recruit one of several types of troll, each being specialists at a certain type of enemy?

Siege? I love the current catapult thingy, but there should also maybe be a crude ram as well for mid-game and rushed attacks against fortified positions.

As for architecture - i'm leaning towards a complete revision. Angmar almost looks like a bad mod architecture wise, mixing in a bunch of buildings that never seem to fit and look right together, and considering it was a factions that lasted several centuries, that doesn't feel right.

Were-wolves and vampires seem a bit too first age, but I can see how they'd be used, and i like the idea regardless. Maybe make them the Angmar hero horde? As for barrow-wights, I don't see them as taking as active a role, but they'd make awesome fortress defence structures, and maybe even a Barrow could spawn wights in a defensive situation like you see with the Warg Pen of Isengard.

[mike_]

Dark Numenoreans weren't numerous enough around this time to be used in a shieldwall-esque formation. They'd be used mainly as captains and, possibly, berzerkers. Though, some Rhudaur hillmen could be your mid-to-late-game infantry fix

And I like how I've set yet another trend

[Gr1m]

Dark Numenoreans weren't numerous enough around this time to be used in a shieldwall-esque formation. They'd be used mainly as captains and, possibly, berzerkers. Though, some Rhudaur hillmen could be your mid-to-late-game infantry fix :shiftee

(Stating the obvious here but meh) Keep in mind Angmar is a second age faction, not third age, so it's more feasible. At that time Angmar would probably also be attracting forces from all over this region of middle earth - being the dominant force of evil at that time - so it's still relatively feasible.

On the other hand, you could have them serve as banner carriers for the Rhudaur battalions, or they could simply just have a smaller battalion size.

[mike_]

No...they were never very numerous after the fall of Numenor. Only two are kept in memory for serving under Sauron in the Battle of the Last Alliance but I think having them as the banner carriers for certain units could both work and be cool as all get-out. I like it.

EDIT: Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttttttttt, Angmar = Second Age? I think you mean middle of the Third Age, mate

Edited by mike_, 02 November 2008 - 03:58 AM.

[Gr1m]

No...they were never very numerous after the fall of Numenor. Only two are kept in memory for serving under Sauron in the Battle of the Last Alliance but I think having them as the banner carriers for certain units could both work and be cool as all get-out. I like it.

EDIT: Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttttttttt, Angmar = Second Age? I think you mean middle of the Third Age, mate

Oops! Dammit, if this isn't a wake up call to read Sil again, I don't know what is.

[Jaguar6]

I really like your ideas their Gr1m, here is my revised ideas for a unit list...
-Ghundabad Warriors: Orc infantry armed with swords/axes and kite shields, along with heavier armour.. Unlike Mordor Orcs they can get upgrades.
-Ghundabad Archers: Orc infantry armed with longbows, along with heavier armour. Unlike Mordor Orcs they can get upgrades.
-Ghundabad Champions: Heavy Orc infantry armed with large maces/clubs.
-Rhudaur Hillmen: Light Rhudaur infantry armed with spears, and the ability to toggle to axes/swords.
-Rhudaur Hunters: Light Rhudaur infantry armed with bows.
-Black Numenorian Swordsmen: Very heavy infantry armed with with double handed swords.
-Black Numenorian Pikemen: Elite extremely heavy infantry armed with brutal pikes.
-Black Numenorian Winged Lancers: Elite heavy cavalry armed with long lances, also they have large black wings on their backs, I would picture them like the Polish Winged Hussars in black armour.
-Wolf Brood: Like the Dire Wolves already in the game, but with a better skin.
-Snow Troll: A single lightly armoured Troll unit that comes wielding a mattock.
-Hill Troll: A single heavily armoured Troll unit that uses a pike.
-Stone Thrower: Same old unit, but with better looking Trolls.
-Sorcerer: Same unit as the one ingame, even though I hate them.
-Barrow Wright: Either single unit or in battalions of three that have ancestral armour and swords from the kings of Arnor.

[{IRS}Athos]

Ghundabad? No, that's Gundabad.