1109 replies to this topic

[mike_]

Hrrk-blegh

I vote to do away with the Thrall Master...maybe as an individual unit that can be joined with a battalion to give them some sort of bonus?

[Jaguar6]

Lol, I find it funny how everybody just ignores my ideas. Maybe I'm just too into myself

[dojob]

Hrrk-blegh

I vote to do away with the Thrall Master...maybe as an individual unit that can be joined with a battalion to give them some sort of bonus?

If the system is gone then there's no point in keeping them. What is so bad about the thrall system anyway?

[mike_]

I don't really like it. Doesn't seem very...needed. Just seems like you're delaying the purchase of actual troops.

And on a side note, it seems you've matured greatly in your absence, Dojob. Well done

[dojob]

And "seeming" unneeded is outweighed by the fact that it has no actual balance issues; it's just a matter of preference. I wouldn't mind getting rid of the entire MotE faction because I dislike their style (especially Rhun ) but u don't see me trying to do that because I know people like it, and it would be a waste of codework to get rid of things just because I dislike that particular style.

Edited by dojob, 07 November 2008 - 11:29 AM.

[Argeleb]

I'd say that Gundabad warriors & wolf rider shouls have their own building and Thralls could summon Axe throwers, Spearmen and Axemen/Clubmen

[{IP} Aridor]

That is a much better idea for them if you really insist on keeping them.

[Jaguar6]

I agree with AA But what about my ideas for the units?

[Argeleb]

I think they're cool

[dojob]

I agree with AA But what about my ideas for the units?

I'd prefer a list like this, if people are so insistent on separating orcs and rhudaurmen:

-Thrall Master: Can summon rhudaurmen raiders (strong vs buildings), spearmen, and ax throwers.

-Gundabad Orcs: higher armor and overall quality than goblins, and can also be upgradable.

-Wolf Brood: Dire Wolves with a name-change.

-Gundabad Hunters/Bowmen/Archers/etc: decent archers that shoot poison arrows and maybe have a fire-arrow ability that burns an area.

-Werewolves: Perhaps like trolls, but faster and weaker? Perhaps they could get a howl ability as well...

-Vampires: flying light units, good for scouting and can also harass enemy units and debuff them.

-Black Numenoreans: Come in 3s or 5s, provide a little leadership, and have an ability like blademaster.

-Sorcerer: stays as is, but maybe with debuff leadership.

-Hill Trolls: like they are now, but bigger, better, and fewer in numbers. Perhaps a skin change is in order as well.

-Mire-wights: weaker version of wights that debuff enemies, do poison damage, and are trained from any buildings to defend against weak raiders, with a maximum of 3 per building.

Idc if snow trolls and angmar catas are replaced, stay, or are messed with.

Edited by dojob, 07 November 2008 - 07:39 PM.

[Jaguar6]

Hmm, something tells me you are thinking of the wrong list

[dojob]

I made it up by combining mike's list with a few of my own ideas; it's what I'd prefer over what u put

Edited by dojob, 08 November 2008 - 01:21 PM.

[Jaguar6]

Yes but you could use more units, like some soldiers from Rhudaur, Black Numenorean Cavalry, and redone Snow Trolls. I also think that the Snow Trolls and Hill Trolls shouldn't come in battalions, but one at a time like the other Troll units.

[dojob]

Yes but you could use more units, like some soldiers from Rhudaur, Black Numenorean Cavalry, and redone Snow Trolls. I also think that the Snow Trolls and Hill Trolls shouldn't come in battalions, but one at a time like the other Troll units.

I already threw in plenty of Rhudaur men; thrall masters can train 3 different kinds. As for snow trolls, I just don't see the point in having them (especially in 1s) when there's already werewolves. I know u'd rather have werewolves as a summon and have Snow Trolls as units, but Ima have to go with mike on this simply because I like the overall style better.

Why? Well, let's compare ur ideas and his:

Your Ideas:

-Ghundabad Warriors: Orc infantry armed with swords/axes and kite shields, along with heavier armour.. Unlike Mordor Orcs they can get upgrades.
-Ghundabad Archers: Orc infantry armed with longbows, along with heavier armour. Unlike Mordor Orcs they can get upgrades.
-Ghundabad Champions: Heavy Orc infantry armed with large maces/clubs.
-Rhudaur Hillmen: Light Rhudaur infantry armed with spears, and the ability to toggle to axes/swords.
-Rhudaur Hunters: Light Rhudaur infantry armed with bows.
-Black Numenorian Swordsmen: Very heavy infantry armed with with double handed swords.
-Black Numenorian Pikemen: Elite extremely heavy infantry armed with brutal pikes.
-Black Numenorian Winged Lancers: Elite heavy cavalry armed with long lances, also they have large black wings on their backs, I would picture them like the Polish Winged Hussars in black armour.
-Wolf Brood: Like the Dire Wolves already in the game, but with a better skin.
-Snow Troll: A single lightly armoured Troll unit that comes wielding a mattock.
-Hill Troll: A single heavily armoured Troll unit that uses a pike.
-Stone Thrower: Same old unit, but with better looking Trolls.
-Sorcerer: Same unit as the one ingame, even though I hate them.
-Barrow Wright: Either single unit or in battalions of three that have ancestral armour and swords from the kings of Arnor.

The problem here is that u have too many kinds of units; 4 swordsmen (including the toggler hillmen), 2 archers, 3 cav (if u count the wolves), and 3 pikes (again, including the togglers); Why would I use Gundabad infantry when I can use Rhudaur Hillmen which are more versatile? Why bother with crappy orc archers when I can go for Rhudaur Hunters, or use BN pikemen when I can get a troll to do the same or masses of cheaper hillmen? There's too much role confliction and, quite frankly, all the orc/human units (especially infantry) simply make for a bland faction and it's too similar to Mordor in the variety of infantry you have, which isn't helped by the removal of the thrall system. You gotta understand that variety of units is only good as long as those units are unique enough and aren't shadowed by a more practical unit of a similar type. A person playing ur Angmar faction would be overwhelmed in choices and I can guarantee, just like with Mordor (Seriously, who the hell uses Morgul Orcs when spam orcs are free or when they can get trolls or pikes or other units that don't suck and who uses orc archers when u can spam normal orcs and then get better archers slightly later...), that there will be many units that simply end up going unused.

Then there's Mike's ideas:

Orc Warriors.
-Standard Orc warriors..though, unlike Mordor, can be upgraded with Heavy Armour and Forged Blades.
Orc Trackers.
-Orcs with bows...while they're still crap archers, can be upgraded with Heavy Armour. Also, use Poisoned Arrows against units and Flaming Arrows against structures - they gain access to that once they reach rank two.
Outlaw Brigands.
-A mix of Wildmen of Dunland, Rhudaur Hillmen, etc. Anyway, toggle between spears and bows. Have strong health and attack, but relatively weak armor. Also move quite fast and are stealthed when in trees upon reaching rank two.
Were-wolf of Forochel.
-A single unit, only useful in melee combat. As you could guess, a werewolf - though not like what you're likely used to. Instead of toggling from an ordinary Man to a...hairier Man, stays as a monstrous, bipedal, ferocious wolf.
Emissaries of the Iron Crown.
-Vampires..basically a large, humanoid bat. Useful mainly for scouting, causing fear in enemy troops, and providing air support in combat if forced. Acts as a miniature Nazgul on Fell Beast. Like the Were-wolves, single units.
Black Numenorean.
-Single, Captain unit. Provides leadership to nearby troops while creating negative effects in enemy ones. Wields a large, claymore-like sword, and gets a heavy armour upgrade upon reaching a certain rank - three, maybe five.
Mire-Wights.
-Slaved to a building, the "Fell Haunt" for lack of a better name. Take away enemy leadership effects, and attack enemy troops in melee combat - pretty much exactly like the Barrow-Wights found ingame.
Wolf-Brood.
-The Dire Wolves found ingame, except the horde structure is less of an ordered block and more of a...horde also, upon leveling up, spawns a scaled-up Wolf Chieftan to act as the banner carrier.

Here, there's only 1 swordsman, 2 archers (including toggler brigands), 1 pike (again, the toggler brigands), and a bunch of support units. Everything here has a clear, obvious role, and on top of that, there's plenty of unique support units; no other faction has non-hero fliers or building creeps. Because I like the uniqueness and clear roles, and because I trust mike to be true to lore, I think that this is an overall better unit list and with the minor adjustments I gave, I think it would be a fantastic faction.

Edited by dojob, 08 November 2008 - 06:30 PM.

[Jaguar6]

The problem here is that u have too many kinds of units; 4 swordsmen (including the toggler hillmen), 2 archers, 3 cav (if u count the wolves), and 3 pikes (again, including the togglers); Why would I use Gundabad infantry when I can use Rhudaur Hillmen which are more versatile? Why bother with crappy orc archers when I can go for Rhudaur Hunters, or use BN pikemen when I can get a troll to do the same or masses of cheaper hillmen? There's too much role confliction and, quite frankly, all the orc/human units (especially infantry) simply make for a bland faction and it's too similar to Mordor in the variety of infantry you have, which isn't helped by the removal of the thrall system. You gotta understand that variety of units is only good as long as those units are unique enough and aren't shadowed by a more practical unit of a similar type. A person playing ur Angmar faction would be overwhelmed in choices and I can guarantee, just like with Mordor (Seriously, who the hell uses Morgul Orcs when spam orcs are free or when they can get trolls or pikes or other units that don't suck and who uses orc archers when u can spam normal orcs and then get better archers slightly later...), that there will be many units that simply end up going unused.

You are forgetting that the Gundabad Orcs are heavier then the Rhudaur men. But I do get your point, we should probably drop the Gundabad Champions, so we only have 3 swordsmen units. I also fail to see the 3rd pikemen unit, I can only see 2. Rhudaur Hillmen are crappy infantry that would come from the Thrall Master, and would only be used for early rushes, and nothing else. What so you mean by having a Troll over a BN Pikemen, Trolls are cavalry, not anti-cavalry. My suggestion would be to have the Rhudaur men come from the Thrall Master, that way it's more balanced

Here, there's only 1 swordsman, 2 archers (including toggler brigands), 1 pike (again, the toggler brigands), and a bunch of support units. Everything here has a clear, obvious role, and on top of that, there's plenty of unique support units; no other faction has non-hero fliers or building creeps. Because I like the uniqueness and clear roles, and because I trust mike to be true to lore, I think that this is an overall better unit list and with the minor adjustments I gave, I think it would be a fantastic faction.

What am I gonna use in the beginning? I'll be wiped out before I can even start the game! Your list doesn't really have enough units, while mine had too many.

[mike_]

Simple really...start out with Orcs, then supplement them with Hillmen, Brigands, and the early support units (Black Numenoreans, Vampires) until you can have a strong infantry of veteran Orcs forming a vanguard for the Hillmen, with Black Numenoreans and Were-Wolves strewn throughout the ranks and a quick-reaction force of Wolves and Vampires, as well as Brigands held in reserve.

[Jaguar6]

Sounds just like mine, but mine would have Trolls

[dojob]

You are forgetting that the Gundabad Orcs are heavier then the Rhudaur men. But I do get your point, we should probably drop the Gundabad Champions, so we only have 3 swordsmen units. I also fail to see the 3rd pikemen unit, I can only see 2. Rhudaur Hillmen are crappy infantry that would come from the Thrall Master, and would only be used for early rushes, and nothing else. What so you mean by having a Troll over a BN Pikemen, Trolls are cavalry, not anti-cavalry. My suggestion would be to have the Rhudaur men come from the Thrall Master, that way it's more balanced


What am I gonna use in the beginning? I'll be wiped out before I can even start the game! Your list doesn't really have enough units, while mine had too many.

The hill-trolls have pikes, so I assumed they're good against cavalry, and my idea was to have thralls as well; u gotta check my unit list again and not just mike's.

My Gundabad Orcs would have heavier armor than Rhudaurmen; I'd have my thralls as light raiders early on while Gundabad provides some bulkier infantry and then support units combined with these just own everything. Between 3 thrall units and 2 gundabadies, I don't see any lack of early game units in my unit list.

[rjorrin28]

I'd like to see thrals go away altoghether.

[{IP} Aridor]

Well everyone has a list so I decided to post my ideas. They may be a little unorthodox but I am trying to emphasize the theme of Angmar, so where you are starting at gameplay I am starting emotion and feeling and making gameplay fit.

Gundabad Orcs: These snarling beasts are weak but numerous. They are a twisted a vile tribe for even the foul race of orcs. They take pleasure in torture and death and so the more they slaughter the more crazed they get. When in a blood frenzy they don't defend themselves and think only of death. The Orcs are rewarded with a special saw bladed scimitar if they slaughter 20 enemies The Witch King sometimes armors Orcs who have proven they can kill his enemies and live to drink their blood.
Gameplay- The orcs are your weakest unit but are cheap. As they fight the more they kill the higher their attack gets but their armor lowers. Once they reach lvl 2 they can get a upgraded weapon, the serrated scimitar which is like forged blade, At level 3 they can get heavy armor.

Rhudar Hordes: These wild traitors of men serve the Witch King. He has deluded these foolish barbarians into thinking that he will reward them for their service. Fools, Sauron has only slaves. He calls them from their huts and cabins to wage war against men of far greater skill. He calls them to battle un-armed and so his lieutenants must decide what to arm these hordes with as the march to death.
Gameplay- You purchase a horde of Rhudar men who lack anything but crude weapons. Their leader is the thrall master. You can then choose to arm them with a choice of bow, sword, pike, or ax.The base horde is exceptionally cheap and fast built. The added weapons are more expensive. This lets the hard core thrall master lovers keep that versatility.

Rhudar Nobles: These are half-blood Arnorians who have sided with the Half-blood prince of rhudar and joined the Witch King. They like their true blood kin favor the bow. They are cowards and so are heavily armored. These half blooded dunedain lack the valor of their ancestors and so will not fight up close. They also have not the sinew of the numenorians any more.
Gameplay- These are a extremely heavy archer. They lack the range and power of other archers but they are really hard to kill with arrows. Unlike other archer they will not try to engage in melee combat instead of continuing to fire as other archer units they flee. This counter acts their heavy armor.

Spies: These vile spies of the dark lord are his eyes and ears. Unseen they gain vital information for the Witch King's advances. They also sow deceit and mayhem in the very heart of his foes.
Gameplay- These are the only stealth unit in Angmar. A single unit with excellent LOS and stealth reveal. This a good way to counter Rangers. The spy also has special powers that sow discontent in the enemy, at higher lvls they can even get enemies to attack each other. They also can sabotage enemy reasources to reduce their output. At high lvls their skill increases and they can disable enemy buildings and even nearly destroy them.

Dire Wolves: These howling hordes of wolves are bred in the dungeons of Carn Dum and are starved before battle. Hungry and huge they fall on the men of Arnor with a Ravenous hunger. Much larger than wild wolves they strike fear in men with their howls.
Gameplay- Basically the normal dire wolves, only they have howl ability that reduces the enemies armor.

White Wolves: White Dire Wolves that the Witch King keeps as his pets as they often are the most fierce of the pack and have blood red eyes. These great white monsters are easily seen on the battlefield but that only strikes fear into the heart of men for where the withe wolves are surely the Witch King is.
Gameplay- These are a very powerful wolf unit that is an elite cav. Only one is allowed unless the Witch King is present.

Warg Riders- These great wolves are ridden by orcs from the north. As the wargs are mostly in Mirkwood serving Sauron the Witch King has little of these to use.
Gameplay- Basic wargs only they cost more.

Trolls: These beasts come in many forms and the Witch King uses them all. From the stone hard cave troll, to the quicker hill troll, to great mountain troll. They are dumb creatures that are only good at killing. Some that have proven their intelligence receive massive weapons forged in the heart of Carn Dum.
Gameplay- You build a troll, now the kind is random, the Cave Troll has the best armor, the Hill troll is fastest, and the Mountain troll has the highest attack. At lvl 2 they can get a weapon, be it a sword, pike or hammer.

Now for the true units of the Witch King. These are the few and powerful. His favorite creatures of Terror.

Assassin: The Witch King sends these masters of the art of death into the heart of Arnor to slay the captains of Arnor. Without their brave leaders the people of Arnor will falter. The Witch King cares not what happens to his slaves after they complete his task, so he never provides a way out.
Gameplay- A good hero killer. They lack any ability to fight but instead use their awesome stealth to sneak up on a hero and cause massive damage. They are pretty much one use as they have no attack and their kill power takes a long long time to recharge. So if the enemy has any troops around the unit is as good as dead.

Necromancers:These are dark magicians who worship death. They draw their power from the banished valar Morgoth. Their spells cause death and sickness in the men of Arnor.
Gameplay-Just the sorcerers with more spells. Such as plague, summon death walkers, and insanity.

Traitors: These pureblooded dunedindian have fallen prey to the lure of the Witch King and his promises of power. They are few but great in power. They sometimes can cause disunity in their old followers.
Gameplay- Kind of like the Black Numenorians only more powerful. They also have a power to convert enemy units. They are the MHH for Angmar.

Vampires: These flying monstrosities strike terror into the hearts of all but the most brave. They are huge bat like creatures filled with a dark spirit. They fall on a prey and tear him to pieces. Once they have fallen on a target they will not let go but stay until every once of life is drained from the corpse. The sight of of a brave captain being sucked dry causes even the stoutest man to quake.
Gameplay- These are a unique hunter unit. Once ordered to attack a unit they dive on it and envelope it until it dies. This is good to kill heroes and banner carriers. It is really good against banner carriers b/c when they attack nearby units flee and cannot fight.

Wights: These dark spirits are the result of the Witch King's Necromancy that he learned from is Dark Lord. Tortured souls that seek only companions in death. They can take control of a corpse and use it to kill.
Gameplay- They are normal wights except they can be upgraded with a corpse which increases their attack a lot but makes them more vulnerable and looses them their health stealing.

Werewolves: Blood thirsty creatures from ancient time. These are huge wolf like monsters that are filled with the most vile of fallen Maiar. They charge into battle shredding their prey. Very few in number they awakened and brought forth by necromancy that only the Witch King can master. Their Howl can chill the bones of even the Heirs of Elendil.
Gameplay- A zerker unit of immense power that is very costly. They cause great fear by their approach, and have a howl that stops the enemy in their tracks.

I can't think of any more and the list most likely has mistakes, but is 4 am so bare with me.