1109 replies to this topic

[Elrond99]

Sorry but your first list was far better

Winged Lancers, oh my godness

[Jaguar6]

Thanks, I edited it

[{IP} Aridor]

I found this picture. I think this is the direction we should start taking Angmar.
I think this one is a good one too.

Edited by AA IP'er, 05 November 2008 - 01:20 PM.

[{IRS}Athos]

Oooh yes...

[{IP} Aridor]

Here is an idea from the great John Howe
http://www.john-howe...hp?image_id=382
It won't work as an img so you'll need to use the link.

[Dalf32]

thats awesome! much better than the direction that ea took the faction imo. perhaps this can be our first big change to the expansion faction?

[Hexman]

Very good pictures

[Jaguar6]

Ooh, I like the pics, now we just need to redo the unit, building, and possibly hero list

[mike_]

Possibly? I hope you mean definitely.

[{IP} Aridor]

I can't do any remodelling but I can reskin.

[dojob]

*saves trouble*

Tar-Herumor, Champion of Fornost.
-A Black Numenorean general, Tar-Herumor. He is descended from a great Lord of the Haradrim from the Second Age, who fought alongside his brother Ferumir against the Last Alliance of Elves and Men. He is a master of siege warfare, and spent the first eighty years of his adulthood honing his skills in constant war with the Snow-Men of Forochel and the Orcs of the Misty Mountains. Most recently, however, he has allied himself with a new Dark Lord; the Witch-king of Angmar, Chief Servant of Sauron the Enemy. In Angmar's War with Arnor, he commanded the assault upon the walls of Fornost, and won great praise from the Witch-king. Despite his ancestry, the long years of endless conflict have begun to take their tole on the aging warrior; though a pure-bred Numenorean, all Men will succumb to the "Gift of Illuvatar". He wields a longsword, a shield, and wears heavy armour.
Rank One.
-Mount. Mounts an armoured, black horse.
Rank Three.
-The Puppet-Master. Leadership; all nearby units gain a thirty percent increase in movement speed and experience. In addition to this, all allied Siege Weapons near him gain a fifty percent attack speed and damage boost.
Rank Three.
-Dark Arts. Heals nearby units and heroes.
Rank Six.
-The King's Men. Grants experience to all units in a radius.
Rank Eight.
-A Cloud of Serpents. Calls down a large volley of arrows and several catapult stones which bombard a specified area.

Sounds pretty good Only thing I'd change is the 30% movement speed increase, since u could end up with broken anims or too much speed. Same with the siege buff; the one for damage is enough, but a slight (like 5-10%) attack speed buff probably wouldn't hurt

Units
Orc Warriors.
-Standard Orc warriors..though, unlike Mordor, can be upgraded with Heavy Armour and Forged Blades.
Orc Trackers.
-Orcs with bows...while they're still crap archers, can be upgraded with Heavy Armour. Also, use Poisoned Arrows against units and Flaming Arrows against structures - they gain access to that once they reach rank two.

I think orcs should remain as thrall units, leaving u able to summon gundabad orcs, wolf riders, and poison-arrow orc archers The thrall system is fun and unique for gameplay and even with upgrades (especially the generic HA, FB, etc ones), trained spamling orcs won't be unique enough from goblins or mordor orcs (especially black orcs) imo.

Outlaw Brigands.
-A mix of Wildmen of Dunland, Rhudaur Hillmen, etc. Anyway, toggle between spears and bows. Have strong health and attack, but relatively weak armor. Also move quite fast and are stealthed when in trees upon reaching rank two.

Sounds like a good unique pike unit. And maybe give them the ability to shoot a fire-arrow volley that burns an area (like a barrage of corsair firebombs) just for the hell of it

Were-wolf of Forochel.
-A single unit, only useful in melee combat. As you could guess, a werewolf - though not like what you're likely used to. Instead of toggling from an ordinary Man to a...hairier Man, stays as a monstrous, bipedal, ferocious wolf.
Emissaries of the Iron Crown.
-Vampires..basically a large, humanoid bat. Useful mainly for scouting, causing fear in enemy troops, and providing air support in combat if forced. Acts as a miniature Nazgul on Fell Beast. Like the Were-wolves, single units.
Black Numenorean.
-Single, Captain unit. Provides leadership to nearby troops while creating negative effects in enemy ones. Wields a large, claymore-like sword, and gets a heavy armour upgrade upon reaching a certain rank - three, maybe five.

Good good, though maybe put the numenoreans in groups of 3 And perhaps u could give werewolves leadership to other wolves?

Mire-Wights.
-Slaved to a building, the "Fell Haunt" for lack of a better name. Take away enemy leadership effects, and attack enemy troops in melee combat - pretty much exactly like the Barrow-Wights found ingame.

They should be much weaker than wights, especially when it comes to stealing health. Aside from that, they'd be a good unique unit since they'd be like the only creep that can be attached to normal buildings, so i like it

Wolf-Brood.
-The Dire Wolves found ingame, except the horde structure is less of an ordered block and more of a...horde also, upon leveling up, spawns a scaled-up Wolf Chieftan to act as the banner carrier.

Wonderful. I never really understood why goblins or fucking monsters stood up in line formations in bfme2 :S

I'd also like sorcerers and snow/hill trolls to remain, but the trolls should come in fewer numbers per horde (3-6) and be bigger and better. As for the cata, i wouldn't mind if that were replaced with another siege unit.

As far as the art for buildings, I like the style, so by all means go ahead Perhaps u could post a building list as well

Edited by dojob, 06 November 2008 - 02:17 AM.

[mike_]

I like this reaction much better than your first, dojob

And there's more I've thought of but haven't had the time to put to paper... Aridor can attest to this

[{IP} Aridor]

The Thrall master is a terrible unit. Unlike the Rohan summoner he calls men, goblins, and cav. It feels to varied. Right now the biggest problem with Angmar is lack of units and a concise theme to the faction. Right now the faction feels like is was cobbled together by a half drunk intern at EA. You don't feel like you are getting to pick and choose what units you want to use. Instead you always use the same units. The Thrall Master just contributes to this. If he called forth say only wildmen it would be much better. Look at Rohan, they have a summoner but they have a ton of other units. Angmar lacks choice.

Now As far as theme and design go Angmar is like the Evil Gondor. They weren't an orc spawn crazy force. They did base a lit of their forces in the Goblins of Gundabad but they used their men in Rhudar to great effect. They were never that great in numbers. The force of Gondor that routed them was but a small part of Gondor's power. Instead they focused on tough well trained units and the use of Morgul. The Witch King was like a small Sauron from the First Age. Just like Sauron became the Morgoth replacement so the Witch King came to replace Sauron. Now Sauron in the first age was the master of the Werewolves and Ghosts. He was a master of horror and deceit. He caused men to go mad with terror and horror. He was like the SS of Hitler. The Witch King did this as well. He used treachery and magic to defeat his foes. He didn't have huge force but they were powerful.

[Ed Of The 3rd Kind]

From a design standpoint I see Angmar as looking almost royal, yet perversely so, their armor spike with crests and curves and jagged edges with dark steel plates eaten with rust around the edges. Angmar seems like an old faction and I always thought it should retain that feel. I was so disappointed when I saw how much of a disaster the designers made of them. The produce on ROTWK was different from BFME2 so it failed miserably with any sense of continuity. You can't go into a world and create something new without having ties to it within that world itself. Like the rules of worldbuilding in fantasy, everything has to make sense and have purpose within the world around it. When I first saw the designs for the Angmar faction I just thought it was messy, kinda like some of W.O.W. designs that just don't flow with the rest of the game characters.

[{IP} Aridor]

Angmar needs to be dark and terrorizing. Large angular stone structures that project power and fear. Height would help a lot. I think that the second art work I posted really captures that feeling of power and dread. Not like Mordor where it is filthy orcs, massive iron, and blackness. Mordor is projects power through sheer size. They are massive amounts of units. They strike fear into their enemies with their immense size. I imagine it like this:

The Gondorian Soldier sees hundreds of thousands of orcs marching towards him, his heart fails b/c he realizes he is out number 10 to 1. There is no hope of victory. He may slay 20 or more but he'll never win. Mordor projects fear through size.

Isenguard on the other hand is like a machine. They aren't many Uruks they are one massive organism. They aren't as large as a Mordor force but they feel unstoppable. The steady chanting and thud of the heavy iron boots unnerves their enemies. In battle that kind of disciple is really shaking to an enemy. Soldiers see a machine and you can't stop a machine.

Now Gobs don't real inspire fear, more they just inspire desperation. They die easy and aren't that huge but for the love of god they just don't stop coming. It isn't an army that throws their enemy in to terror at the start rather they just slowly wear them thin.

Angmar, well now we arrive at the purpose of this post. Angmar is totally different then all the others. They don't inspire fear through numbers, they don't unnerve their enemies through an unstoppable machine, and the deffinately don't feel like the never end. Yet they are the most fear inducing force of evil. They cause fear and terror through sheer horror. They are the force of evil that aproaches under a dark cloud of vampire bats. The Gondor soldier sees a thick black fog aproaching and all he sees are monstrous outlines and the dark shadows of crazed screaming barbarians. He doesn't hear the screeches of goblins, the growls of orc, nor the steady thud of iron. No all he hears are screams of terror, roars of bizarre beasts, and sounds of his nightmares. His captain advances infront of the line to try and bolster his men. He advances towards the oncoming terror and faces his men. As he raises his sword in defiance and starts to utter a battlecry, a dark shadow swoops from the sky and engulfs him. He disappears into the wings of vampire and his battlecry becomes a scream of terror and pain. It is cut short as the vampire jerks violently. His men are in shock and terror. The vampire lifts its bloody mouth and wails as it takes flight again. A soldier falls over crying in horror as his comrade throws down his gear and flees. The line breaks as men flee cursing and full of terror. The generals try to stop their men and around them small pockets form. But to no avail. The wildmen fall on them crazed with battle. The few brave men left fight valiantly against these barbarians. The wild hordes are not a formidable enemy but they are crazed and fight like men drunk on blood. Then monsters fall on the pockets of bravery. Trolls armed with weapons of touture, wraiths that drive men mad, and huge wolves and wargs tear into men's flesh. The brave men of Arnor are still holding. Their numbers are equal to their foe. Then a madding fear comes over the men and most flee. The general's body guard is all that is left. The world itself seems twisted but this approaching dark terror. His men quake in their boots as the wildmen halt for a second and pull away, clearly they to feel this oppressive fear too. Then as a dark fog flows around the bodyguard and the sky turns black as nature seems to be twisted in horror. With a roar all the sudden massive werewolves jump out of the fog as a vampires fall from the sky. The brave men of arnor are torn to pieces. The General his stunned senseless. The monsters are about to him, when suddenly they stop. Even these beasts of terror pull back as a dark cloud of fear comes up. It is the Witch King himself. He pulls are long dark sword covered in vile runes and cursed with morgul. The brave general of Arnor raises his sword in defiance. The Witch only laughs and mocks him, "I see that the fallen men of Numenor still have the hearts of their fathers, too bad they don't have the strength." He laughs a cold chilling laugh as the champion of Arnor's sword shatters from the Witch King's spell. The General's eyes open wide in horror as the black morgul blade peirces his heart. His last dying bodyguard watches in sheer terror as his leader withers from the vile stab.

That's how Angmar induces fear. I think a semi-good idea of Angmar is the forces of Evil in the Narnia. They had a lot in common. C.S. Lewis wrote to his friend J.R.R. about it.

Edited by AA IP'er, 06 November 2008 - 04:15 PM.

[dojob]

I like this reaction much better than your first, dojob

And there's more I've thought of but haven't had the time to put to paper... Aridor can attest to this

Heh, I cba to go back and see it

The Thrall master is a terrible unit. Unlike the Rohan summoner he calls men, goblins, and cav. It feels to varied. Right now the biggest problem with Angmar is lack of units and a concise theme to the faction. Right now the faction feels like is was cobbled together by a half drunk intern at EA. You don't feel like you are getting to pick and choose what units you want to use. Instead you always use the same units. The Thrall Master just contributes to this. If he called forth say only wildmen it would be much better. Look at Rohan, they have a summoner but they have a ton of other units. Angmar lacks choice.

So what if it's varied, diversity is good for RTS factions. It may "feel" wierd to you, but that doesn't mean it's bad for gameplay. On the contrary, the on-the-fly customization is unique and fun for gameplay, and if u combine the thrall system with the sort of elite units that mike gave, then Angmar would be a fucking amazing faction imo

Now As far as theme and design go Angmar is like the Evil Gondor. They weren't an orc spawn crazy force. They did base a lit of their forces in the Goblins of Gundabad but they used their men in Rhudar to great effect. They were never that great in numbers. The force of Gondor that routed them was but a small part of Gondor's power. Instead they focused on tough well trained units and the use of Morgul. The Witch King was like a small Sauron from the First Age. Just like Sauron became the Morgoth replacement so the Witch King came to replace Sauron. Now Sauron in the first age was the master of the Werewolves and Ghosts. He was a master of horror and deceit. He caused men to go mad with terror and horror. He was like the SS of Hitler. The Witch King did this as well. He used treachery and magic to defeat his foes. He didn't have huge force but they were powerful.

K, but he can still have some spamlings on the fly to make things interesting ;D He still had orcs after all. The werewolves, vampires, maybe some tweaks to powers, and things that mike suggested will help ur need for a scary faction, so idk what ur making a fuss over

Edited by dojob, 06 November 2008 - 08:48 PM.

[mike_]

Well tbh they shouldn't really be a spam faction. The Orcs should be early game units that can be upgraded and made stronger throughout the game, giving your units a real sense of personality. IMHO they should also be given better stats than Mordor's Orcs.

[Scryer]

I kind of like what AA is saying about Angmar going for the effect of making their enemies feel sheer terror. Soundwise, I would want to experiment with using silence for some parts of Angmar. I'm not sure what those parts would be though.

For units, I like Mike's idea the best.

Outlaw Brigands.
-A mix of Wildmen of Dunland, Rhudaur Hillmen, etc. Anyway, toggle between spears and bows. Have strong health and attack, but relatively weak armor. Also move quite fast and are stealthed when in trees upon reaching rank two

I think that there should be more involvement with Rhudaur's forces. So, personally, I'm not satisfied with just one unit of Rhudaur warriors. They were involved a little too much to be represented just by one unit.

Here's what I'm thinking for the Thrall Unit:

- Summon Rhudaur Axmen: Like before only they can be upgraded with FB.
- Summon Rhudaur Wildmen: Like before only they can be upgraded with FB and Torches.
- Summon Wolf Riders: Like before only they can be upgraded with FB
- Summon Gunbadad Orcs: Like before only they can be upgraded with FB

And then Mike's "Outlaw Brigands" would be seperate.

My other suggestion is to give the Rhudaur units their own building because the only Rhudaur units that can be made are from the Thrall Unit. Other than that, they don't have a lot of involvement right now.

[{IP} Aridor]

For the thrall masters I am fine with them summoning multilple kinds of units. Like the Yeoman hearald. But they should all be wildmen, not a mix of goblins.

[dojob]

Or they could all be orcs.