1109 replies to this topic

[{IRS}Athos]

I like it, since you got rid of the trolls with pikes.

[Jaguar6]

If you ask me, that list is perfect! Except the Spies and Assasins should be one combined unit, the Dire and White Wolves should also be combined as one unit, and there should be another Gundabad unit.

[mike_]

Why should the Dire and White Wolves be combined? They're two different units that fill two different purposes.

[Jaguar6]

Because in the lore they are the same thing.

[mike_]

No. They're not. The Dire-Wolves are simply wild wolves domesticated to a short extent and used in warfare to break up formations/intimidate troops. The White Wolves are monstrous Wargs possessed by lesser Maiar (Orcen fea, maybe) and used personally by the Witch-king as an escort to and from battle, as well as a battle-guard.

[Jaguar6]

In the Fellowship of the Ring the White Wolves are basically regular wolves that attack the Fellowship. And where does Tolkein ever mention that the Witch King had giant pet Maiar?

[{IP} Aridor]

Just a warning you don't want to get into a battle over lore with mike. If he says it you can bet he has the facts to back it up. Also they fill two totally different roles. The same for the spies and assassins they are filling two totally different roles. The spy disrups the econ and assassin is a single use hero killer. Plus combining them takes away from the dark evil theme and feeling. Which was the entire purpose. Angmar should be a varied army consisting of many types of monsters and units.

Edited by AA IP'er, 09 November 2008 - 08:01 PM.

[Jaguar6]

I know that they fill two different roles, but they are basically the same thing. And the only reason I'm disagreeing with Mike is because I could find the part of the book I'm thinking of, where Tolkein talks about the White Wolves, in a few minutes

[mike_]

For our purposes they could be fea of fallen Orcs in Ages past taking shape again (having been repulsed by Mandos and not allowed into the Halls of the Dead) in the flesh of a monstrous Wolf. This was done in the First Age at Tol-en-Guaroth (spelling may be incorrect) by the greater servants of Sauron, then-Lord of Werewolves. Seeing as the Witch-king was Sauron's Chief Servant in the latter Second and entire Third Age, it makes sense he would teach him many dark arts, including this one.

Evidence of what I said above concerning the Werewolves of the First Age can be found in the Lay of Beren and Luthien, which is found in a section of "The Silmarrileon" (again, spelling (and I cannot recall which chapter)).

The White Wolves attacked the Shire during the Fell Winter, in which the Dunlendings, Easterlings, and Corsairs of Umbar ravaged Rohan (then under Helm's rule). These White Wolves were repulsed with the aid of Gandalf, as well as Bandobras "Bull-Roarer" Took, IIRC.

EDIT: You were warned

Edited by mike_, 09 November 2008 - 09:20 PM.

[aNaRcHiSt44]

I noted their difference even by solely reading the Fellowship of the Ring (I have not read the Silmarillion in quite some time) Jaguar6; it even says in the chapter when the fellowship is upon Caradhras that there is a notable difference between the two; such as the wolves disappearing when 'killed', and even re-appearing later. They are also notably afraid of fire, as normal, but seem less confident than most wolves in this case. You need to pay attention to what evidence you claim mate

Wow I've done this with two factions now....anyway I don't have a bug to report; just talking about lore
I don't know much aside from what I've read in the Lord of the Rings trilogy and the Silmarillion, but I guess I have to use what I've got

[Jaguar6]

For our purposes they could be fea of fallen Orcs in Ages past taking shape again (having been repulsed by Mandos and not allowed into the Halls of the Dead) in the flesh of a monstrous Wolf. This was done in the First Age at Tol-en-Guaroth (spelling may be incorrect) by the greater servants of Sauron, then-Lord of Werewolves. Seeing as the Witch-king was Sauron's Chief Servant in the latter Second and entire Third Age, it makes sense he would teach him many dark arts, including this one.

That is definitely possible.

Evidence of what I said above concerning the Werewolves of the First Age can be found in the Lay of Beren and Luthien, which is found in a section of "The Silmarrileon" (again, spelling (and I cannot recall which chapter)).

Yes, but that is Werewolves, not White Wolves, two completely different things.

The White Wolves attacked the Shire during the Fell Winter, in which the Dunlendings, Easterlings, and Corsairs of Umbar ravaged Rohan (then under Helm's rule). These White Wolves were repulsed with the aid of Gandalf, as well as Bandobras "Bull-Roarer" Took, IIRC.

Also true, and exactly why the Hobbits should have more units

I noted their difference even by solely reading the Fellowship of the Ring (I have not read the Silmarillion in quite some time) Jaguar6; it even says in the chapter when the fellowship is upon Caradhras that there is a notable difference between the two; such as the wolves disappearing when 'killed', and even re-appearing later. They are also notably afraid of fire, as normal, but seem less confident than most wolves in this case. You need to pay attention to what evidence you claim mate wink_new.gif

I never said they were the exact same thing, they did disappear after the battle, so they must have been somewhat magical, but they were the size of a normal wolf, not giant monsters the size of a werewolf. Either way, in the book they acted just like normal wolves, and what's wrong with them being afraid of fire, all animals are afraid of fire.

I guess as long as they aren't as big as a Troll or something, just a bit larger then a normal wolf, I'm okay with it

[mike_]

Of course that wouldn't happen

[{IP} Aridor]

They are only slighty larger. The difference is the fact that they are snow white. Basically Albinos. They are the elite cav and you only get one unless you have the WK then you can have 2nd. If you read my suggestion carefully I state that they are exactly the same as the other Dire Wolves, only these are biggest and meanest of the litter, plus they are albino. The Witch King picks these for his special pets and trains them. This is why they are the best, they are hand trained by the WK. He likes the white ones so he chooses them. Hence they are elite compared to their dark kin. The WK could have chosen only the black ones but he picked white. I mean it is the difference between the Minas Tirith knights and the KODA. They are both cav only the KODA are better trained and function as the elite cav. I fail to see any logic in your argument to commbine the white wolves with the others.

[Jaguar6]

In that case, having the White Wolves as a seperate unit sounds great! Looks like AA has come up with a great new unit roster for Angmar.

Three cheers for AA IP'er!!!

[{IP} Aridor]

I am doing some sketches of art for Angmar. I'll post them latter.

[Scryer]

If you ask me, that list is perfect! Except the Spies and Assasins should be one combined unit, the Dire and White Wolves should also be combined as one unit, and there should be another Gundabad unit.

I agree with the spies and assassins thing because even though they have diverse roles, they can easily be combined into one unit. But that's just me.

As for the Cavalry, I don't think that Dire/White wolves need to be removed; I think that the Warg Riders could also be given the boot because (for me) it feels as though Angmar has too many cavalry units.

And that's my two cents for tonight, folks!

[{IP} Aridor]

I think that the spies and assassins need to stay seperate. Angmar needs to have many types of specialized units. Plus, the assassin would loose its uniqueness if it is combined. The assassin is a one use unit. He has only one power but it does an uber amount of damage. Enough to kill a weak hero and severely hurt tougher ones. This is what hurts Angmar know is the lack of specialization. If you combine the two it hurts the role of both and reduces the feel of Angmar. The Assassin kills heroes, the spy disrupts the affairs of the enemy. The spy would be uber uber op if it had the super kill power of the assassin and stealth, and for the spy to fulfill its role it needs the best stealth. So you either create the most op'ed unit out there or you lose the usefulness of both roles, thus rendering the unit useless. This is the very thing that plagues Angmar right now. The more you split units and increase their uniqueness, the more varied and interesting the game becomes. Lets say both the spy and the assassin cost about the same. Now do you build a one use killer to rid yourself of that pesky hero, or do you disrupt the supply so your units can take care of them. Multi-role units rarely rarely ever do well in combat, both in the game and in the real world. It is much better to learn your one skill highly and be few in number than to have great numbers of mediocre warriors.

[Jaguar6]

Actually I did forget one thing, what about a Gundabad Archer unit? I was also thinking that the Rhudaur Nobles should use something besides a bow, it doesn't really fit, maybe an axe.

[Scryer]

I think that the spies and assassins need to stay seperate. Angmar needs to have many types of specialized units. Plus, the assassin would loose its uniqueness if it is combined. The assassin is a one use unit. He has only one power but it does an uber amount of damage. Enough to kill a weak hero and severely hurt tougher ones. This is what hurts Angmar know is the lack of specialization. If you combine the two it hurts the role of both and reduces the feel of Angmar. The Assassin kills heroes, the spy disrupts the affairs of the enemy. The spy would be uber uber op if it had the super kill power of the assassin and stealth, and for the spy to fulfill its role it needs the best stealth. So you either create the most op'ed unit out there or you lose the usefulness of both roles, thus rendering the unit useless. This is the very thing that plagues Angmar right now. The more you split units and increase their uniqueness, the more varied and interesting the game becomes. Lets say both the spy and the assassin cost about the same. Now do you build a one use killer to rid yourself of that pesky hero, or do you disrupt the supply so your units can take care of them. Multi-role units rarely rarely ever do well in combat, both in the game and in the real world. It is much better to learn your one skill highly and be few in number than to have great numbers of mediocre warriors.

Got me convinced after you used the "OP" term . It would definitely OP that unit now that I really think about it.... I can't say that I had a strong opinion to back myself up for this one.

The cavalry (from your suggestion) is still a problem for me though because it seems as though there would be too much focus on cavalry if there were 3 units of mounted units. And I definitely reinforce this thought of mine, with the fact that you see Angmar has having many types of specialized units. I think that the current number of cavalry units would distract the player from using specialized units.

For the Vampires, I'd rather use Mike's idea....

Emissaries of the Iron Crown.
-Vampires..basically a large, humanoid bat. Useful mainly for scouting, causing fear in enemy troops, and providing air support in combat if forced. Acts as a miniature Nazgul on Fell Beast. Like the Were-wolves, single units.

From my point of view, Mike's idea of a vampire unit is just dope. I'd rather have the vampires use Mike's name too. I'm sure that it would have to be toned down or whatever to fit the mod. But I definitely like Mike's idea better for a vampire unit. This is just me though.

Edited by Scryer, 10 November 2008 - 01:55 AM.

[mike_]

I actually think his "Hunter" idea could be used well as a power for my Vamps after a certain level, getting the best of both.

Though, to be honest, mine and his are about the same