1109 replies to this topic

[{IP} Aridor]

The Vamps are cannon. They are just huge bats out of the Misty Mountains. Tolkien said in the Hobbit that the Goblins were followed by bats of great size. They aren't maia in bat form any more. They are like the Mirkwood spiders or the wargs, which are the descendants of the werewolves.

[Captain of Arnor]

Is there no possibility that they were just that - bats? Maybe they could've been the offspring of vampires, but thousands of years would've nullified the blood of vampires in them. They were probably just very large bats. Maybe I'm wrong, though. Either way, they belong more than the werewolves, if it comes down to that. I still hate the idea of werewolves.

[Uruk King]

That would work better, I think. Maybe instead of werewolves, some kind of lupine apparition similar to them, amnd can be built from the dungeon.

[Captain of Arnor]

Sauron, not long after the fall of Morgoth / Melkor, came to Middle-earth and took up residence in Mordor. There, he tried to recreate Werewolves...but the closest he could come were Wargs. They were the direct descendants of werewolves, basically. Something with wargs should be done, if theres all this talk about werewolves.

And besides, the Fellowship was attacked by wargs in Eregion, near Hollin, during the attempted trek up Caradhras. So they were in that general area, in the north near Rivendell and near Moria. There may be a chance the Witch-king hard wargs in his hordes.

[Annullus The Grey]

why does everyone forget that sorcery was a learned art as well, finrod dueled in minas tirith with sauron the sorcerer in a battle of sorcererous songs they fought for dominion over each others minds and senses , yes it was subtle magic's but the magic's of the maiar were not entirely beyond the powers of the children of eru. and please stop sperating istari from the maiar the members of that order of the istari were all of the order of maiar angelic being creatures craft from the thought of eru. i myself believe there shouldnt have been any heavily offensive sorcery with the angmar sorcerer unit they should possess subtle magics illusion fear enducing but the fact remains it was no beyond the workings of the children of eru to utilise magic, the witchking was stated as being a great sorcerer king of old before he took the ring so there was precedent and there was the ability.

the magics wielded by finrod were beyond the abilities of the elves he was even capable of besting sauron in a limited way. before you say there is no evidence of magic in cannon i draw your attention to this. in cannon the only major outward expression of magic is when elrond causes the river to flood, note elrond is a loremaster wise in all lore or so it is said the only other example is the previously quoted seen between finrod and sauron

magic in middle earth was highly subtle more of a case of technology being perceived as magic even the istari were not well known for major outward displays unless you include the hobbit which wasnt even intended at least initially to be including within the legends

ill stop ranting now

[Captain of Arnor]

The magics used by the peoples of Middle-earth wasn't the kind of fireball, magical snowy rain type of Harry Potter magic everyone thinks it was. It was more magic of the soul. The magic behind most of the people who were said to be able to use magic was more like inducing courage or fear in the hearts and souls of men and beasts, it was being able to see through deceit or deceive those around the magic user. Like Saruman.

The Maiar were beings who descended from the heavens to help the Valar shape and form, and create, the world. What I've read says there were many of them, yet most were not named. The ones we do know of, are the close assistants of the Valar. Eonwe, the herald of Manwe, and Ilmare, the maiden of Varda, were the chiefs of these. From this order came the Istari, or the Wizards, who were sent to Middle-earth to help aid the free peoples against Sauron, who was one of the most powerful Maiar.

The Maiar could use physical magics, like fireballs and lightning, and blasts / bolts of energy, or shafts of light like Gandalf used to run the fell-beast mounted Ringwraiths away from the routing parties at Osgiliath.

Now, these sorcerers in this game COULD be Maiar, I will say that. But if you wanted to, you could create a hundred sorcerers. That isn't at all canon. Sorcerers could be, or could not be, canon, thats a different thing - but the fact is, their hordes should be limited to three at a time, at the most. And their spells should be changed. In my eyes, they should basically become, more or less, a mobile buff-unit with one or two physical attacks / spells to defend themselves, see what I mean?

Saying that the Witch-king was a great sorcerer king could be saying that he could shoot fireballs from his hands, sure. Or it could be Tolkien saying 'People were so freaked out about him that they mistook his power as magic.'

After all, during the dark years in Middle-earth, while Numenor was gaining power, the Numenoreans came to the shores of Middle-earth and the men who were left there, who weren't Numenoreans, called them gods. And they certainly weren't gods.. So you never know, with Tolkiens work.

[Devon]

The vampire seriously just looks like a very large bat. Ed had a model made somewhere I think.

[mike_]

And for the Werewolf.. both look fine and acceptable to me.

[Morgulshade]

It is true. With Tolkien works you never know certainly, most times you have to interpret what he says. In this case, we should consider Angmar had lots of fearful creatures in their lines, category that vampires and werewolves fit perfectly.
I must quote here: "In J. R. R. Tolkien's fantasy writings, the term vampire is used loosely to designate mysterious bat-like creatures serving Morgoth and Sauron. Almost nothing is known about them, though Tolkien does name one: Thuringwethil. (...) They may or may not be connected to apparently actual vampire bats who follow the Orc hordes into the Battle of Five Armies in The Hobbit and feed upon the fallen" This proves nothing is certain about them.
It would be great to add a big bat horde (like the ones in the Hobbit) and calling them Thuringwethil's offspring (referring to the fact that they weren't pure vampires, as the wargs were not pure werewolves).

[Captain of Arnor]

Eh, once again it seems everyone is leaning towards it. Theres no proof that they were in Angmar (actually, its almost certain that they weren't, think about the amount of time between the fall of Angband and the rise of Angmar?) but I do agree that it would add a new twist, and some excitement, to the mod. If you guys want to do it, go for it. I just don't think its very canon.

I think the bats at the Battle of the Five Armies were just that - big bats, descendants of vampires maybe, almost certainly, but not the real thing.

And I know the kind of vampires in Tolkiens works, I know they aren't like Dracula. They couldn't change shape, they couldn't be human or any of that. Like the werewolves. The werewolves were always werewolves, could never turn human, none of that full moon crap.

[Wanderer∞]

And the sorcerers could always be limited

[Captain of Arnor]

Well, I definitely think the sorcerers should be limited, for one, if not fully removed. But from what I read earlier, a lot of people really like them so I'd think it'd probably just be limited. Mike was talking about it in an earlier post a few pages back, he said he'd like to see them removed, and if not removed, then limited.

[Wanderer∞]

I just think they need to be considered as some of the istari with lesser powers than the 5 chief wizards, need to be limited to whatever fits, and need a re-skin to make them look more fiendish to fit Angmar's vibe.

Oh and I'd like some responses to my earlier post please

Shouldn't the freezing rain power be changed to something else like snow/hail/blizzard/ or even darkness seems better for Angmar?

Edited by Wanderer∞, 25 March 2009 - 02:26 AM.

[Captain of Arnor]

A blizzard power for Angmar would be really cool. Since theres already snow-fall in game, it wouldn't be that hard to do, either, I'd think. Just tinker around with that, make the snowfall come faster, mess around with it so that it comes down in drafts and kinda swirls around and stuff, like its windy. But that it doesn't collect on the ground could weird some people out.

And I'd like to see snow falling in Harad XD But I think its a good idea, personally. It'd be neat.

[shadowcreature]

Blizzard sounds like a good replacement for Freezing Rain. I wonder if it can be used as both as a buff(you) and a debuff(enemy)

[Captain of Arnor]

I think it should. Angmar should get more of a powerful skill like that, to make up for the weakness of their basic troops (the Thrall hordes.) It'd be a cool edition.

[Dragonforce]

I also want something to replace that stupid wolf

[shadowcreature]

I do agree, Angmar's "version" of the Balrog is kind of lousy imo, doesn't it have a loin cloth to boot too? But if that were to be the model for the Werewolves of not already, then good. I just hope that every time it dies it doesn't howl though, unless killing it grants a debuff to enemy units who did said killing.

[Dalf32]

werewolves will have a new model. it is almost done, if not already.

[Uruk King]

Excellent

Also along the lines of Inn factions for Angmar, I was thinking of Gundabad, Goblins, and Dol Guldur

Dol Guldur, being the stronghold of Sauron before he returned to Mordor, and it was founded at about the same time as Angmar was.