1109 replies to this topic

[shadowcreature]

Dol Guldur sounds like a very interesting one, Gundabad imo would have to depend on how many of said units get added into Angmar.

[Uruk King]

I imagined the Gundabad orcs as more resilient, and the closest kind in terms of resilience to the Uruk-hai, also in the main techtrees there's usually two kinds of orc troop type.

[shadowcreature]

That would make sense since I'm sure Gundabad Orcs had to brave fierce weather whilst living on their mountain. I also agree with the more than two orc troop type. After reading Dojob's techtree. perhaps have Gundabad heavy infantry and pikes?

[Dragonforce]

If orcs that Angmar has now are reanmed to Arngmar orcs Gundabad innfac sounds good

[shadowcreature]

If one of our loremen can vouch that Orcs are present in Angmar, then fine by me. The only issue with them is trying to not make them Mordorish, if that's possible.

[Captain of Arnor]

Mount Gundabad was just a little north-east of Angmar, right next to Carn Dum almost. Its completely plausible (if not absolutely likely) that the Witch-king of Angmar recruited the orcs of Mount Gundabad as shock-troops in the war on Angmar. I think its a fair addition, personally. Second opinions?

And because of the climate, they wouldn't be anything like Mordor orcs. Cold climates would lead to smaller stature, in an effort to conserve body heat. (People who live in cold regions, over generations upon generations (evolution, basically), will actually shrink in size as their bodies evolve to adapt to the climate. Smaller size = better body-heat conservation.) They would've been hardier, more cruel and ruthless (I think), but not as strong. Much faster, though. More akin to goblins, really, than orcs. Thats MY take on it, at least.

Edited by Captain of Arnor, 27 March 2009 - 06:58 AM.

[shadowcreature]

Nice, so just to form loosely, they're a mix between uruks and goblins so to speak. I like it. Also, my opinion is I agree it being a fair addition.

[Uruk King]

But what would Dol Guldur entail?

Perhaps some kind of Orcish troop suited to hiding in the forest, Castellans; animated suits of armour; controlled by evil spirits. And perhaps this is stepping a bit out of line, but - Necromancers? My idea was that they would act as Thrall Master-type units summoning Skeleton Warriors, Archers and Pikemen, the thralls themselves are moderately weak in close combat, but have considerable armour against arrows.

Before this turns into a lore dispute, the Necromancer summoners themselves are not the source of the sorcerous power, it's the power of the Necromancer embedded within them and their own use of Morgul sorcery combined, the Dark Lord would have appointed a number of his servants to act as vassals for his power, in this case the Necromancers perform the magics taught by the Dark Lord to raise the dead.

[Adamin]

Cold climates would lead to smaller stature, in an effort to conserve body heat. (People who live in cold regions, over generations upon generations (evolution, basically), will actually shrink in size as their bodies evolve to adapt to the climate. Smaller size = better body-heat conservation.) They would've been hardier, more cruel and ruthless (I think), but not as strong. Much faster, though. More akin to goblins, really, than orcs. Thats MY take on it, at least.

I wrote my biology exam last week, so I have to say: No. ^^

According to "Bergmann's Rule" an animal living in cold climates is bigger than its closely related species in warmer climates. The body-heat can be better conserved in bigger bodies, because they have a lower surface area to volume ratio. So there is "less surface to cool down".
Just think of penguins for example. The smallest species Little Penguin living in southern Australia is 16 in tall. The biggest species, the Emperor Penguin, lives in Antarctica and reaches a size of 48 in.

So, Orcs of colder regions would more likely be huge, with short arms and legs (Allen's Rule: species in colder climates have shorter limbs than their counterparts in warmer climates).


But I don't think that we should add too much science in middleearth. ^^

Edited by Adamin, 27 March 2009 - 01:58 PM.

[Captain of Arnor]

=\ You're also forgetting that we're talking about human beings. No fur, no real hair - save what we grow on our heads. Penguins have a lair of Down underneath their feathers that keep them warm. They can dive into sub-arctic waters and survive for hours when a human being would succumb to hypothermia in mere minutes. So using penguins to say 'smaller / bigger = better in cold conditions' is a lot different than it would be for humans.

Human beings (and orcs, I would assume) would naturally be smaller. I mean, look at pictures of the cavemen skeletons found in the areas around Russia. They were broader, stronger looking, but shorter than the average human today. Pygmies existed in the tropical regions, and the heated regions, of course, but there were average sized Homo Sapiens in the areas where Pygmies were found as well.

I'm pretty stuck in the belief that colder climate = smaller body size. But we could go on about this forever - its like the 'Religion or Science' argument. Best to stop now before it gets out of control. XD Anyways.

Orcs in Angmar, I agree.

[Captain of Arnor]

Big bodies take longer to circulate blood through them. Blood takes longer to reach from the extremities through the body, to the heart, from where it continues on throughout the body. Lets say that a person 5'10'' pumps blood through their heart throughout the rest of their body every seven seconds, just for arguments sake. I'm not sure what the exact number is.

When you're freezing to death, the bodies natural, first reaction is to draw blood from the extremities. First, minor - the fingers, hands, feet, toes. It draws the blood up from these lower extremities and uses the blood to supply oxygen to the more vital organs first. Then, if you can't get warm, it uses blood from the arms, the legs. See where I'm going with this?

The orcs of Angmar would've, biologically, been much smaller for this reason. Smaller frame, smaller body size = less time for the blood in the veins to circulate, which makes them less likely to freeze to death.

Yeah, I kinda changed the subject here, but only to add another layer to add what I'm talking about. (And evolution can be dictated by climate. Its everywhere. Look at frogs, or penguins. Hell, look at humans XD)

But whos to say we're not all wrong? We're going off of human beings - orcs weren't the size of human beings in any case, unless they were Uruks, but those were down south. Not in the north. Hell, I'm probably wrong anyways.

[Captain of Arnor]

This has turned into one hell of a science lesson, let me say that, and I hope that what I've done has taught everyone here something. XD Everyone who says you never learn anything online, point those nay-sayers to page 49 of the Angmar section of the RJ-ROTWK mod for The Lord of the Rings - The Battle for Middle-earth 2: The Rise of the Witch-king expansion pack.

Now, back on topic. Short, broad orcs for Angmar is my personal vote. Wielding spears and swords.

[Uruk King]

Just as well as getting back on the subject, I posted a suggestion of the Dol Guldur inn faction earlier:

But what would Dol Guldur entail?

Perhaps some kind of Orcish troop suited to hiding in the forest, Castellans; animated suits of armour; controlled by evil spirits. And perhaps this is stepping a bit out of line, but - Necromancers? My idea was that they would act as Thrall Master-type units summoning Skeleton Warriors, Archers and Pikemen, the thralls themselves are moderately weak in close combat, but have considerable armour against arrows.

Before this turns into a lore dispute, the Necromancer summoners themselves are not the source of the sorcerous power, it's the power of the Necromancer embedded within them and their own use of Morgul sorcery combined, the Dark Lord would have appointed a number of his servants to act as vassals for his power, in this case the Necromancers perform the magics taught by the Dark Lord to raise the dead.

[Captain of Arnor]

Mm, I don't know how Mike would handle any more magical units like that. XD I personally would be against Necromancers, but thats just me. For all we know, there was only one single Necromancer, and that was Sauron. Is there any proof that Necromancers were actually wide-spread creatures / humanoids in the Lord of the Rings mythos? I've never really read anything about them.

Its a neat idea, don't get me wrong, but...like I said...canon comes into play here. Undead, however, would be an excellent addition to this. The Necromancer was said to have a very great army of undead at his disposal. So perhaps, maybe, you can unlock The Necromancer as a hero? (Sauron, in a very greatly weakened form, able to raise the dead or something?) Along with skeleton / spirit swordsmen and bowmen, something along those lines.

To back my suggestion, I'm gonna launch into a big rant about Dol Goldur, Angmar, and I'm gonna throw around a lot of dates and names. Bare with me.

Sauron was said to be able to take physical shape again around T.A. 1000, around the time when the Istari appeared in Middle-earth. (That was why, people think, the Istari appeared at all - because the Valar learned that Saurons defeat wasn't permanent.) In T.A. 1050, he was powerful enough to again begin spreading his shadow across smaller portions of Middle-earth. So its certainly possible that he could've helped the Witch-king of Angmar. During Angmars entire lifetime, if you want to think of it like that, Sauron was dwelling in Dol Guldor. Its entirely plausible that he could've sent aid to the Witch-king. After all, Arvedui died in T.A. 1974, and the Battle of Fornost, the battle that led to the destruction of Angmar at the hands of Gondors army, took place in T.A. 1975. It wasn't until T.A. 2063 that Gandalf ran Sauron out of Dol Guldor. If you look at it from that point of view, is this unlikely?

I don't think there should be many units of Necromancers - rather, only one. And that one unit should be Sauron, only as The Necromancer.

Honestly, this idea is very possible, lore-wise anyways. Not sure about coding / skinning and all that.

Edited by Captain of Arnor, 28 March 2009 - 07:27 AM.

[Scryer]

I am against having Dol Guldor as an Inn Faction. We already have: Rhun, Harad, Mordor, Isengard, Angmar, and the Goblins as Inn factions.

Is there an actual gameplay need for cramming Dol Guldor units into the Inn? Otherwise we got cookie-cutting issues, etc, etc.

Edited by Scryer, 28 March 2009 - 05:08 PM.

[Captain of Arnor]

You mean besides the fact that none of those could be used for Angmar..? Angmar needs an Inn faction. Dol Guldor is a very good option, lore wise and game play wise.

It would only be available for Angmar, seeing as how Angmar and Arnor both need custom inn factions (since they weren't around in the later Third Age that the War of the Ring took place.) Angmar can't ally themselves with Isengard or Mordor, because there was no Isengard or Mordor. They need something seperate.

Edited by Captain of Arnor, 28 March 2009 - 06:07 PM.

[Uruk King]

I am against having Dol Guldor as an Inn Faction. We already have: Rhun, Harad, Mordor, Isengard, Angmar, and the Goblins as Inn factions.

Is there an actual gameplay need for cramming Dol Guldor units into the Inn? Otherwise we got cookie-cutting issues, etc, etc.

For starters Mordor and Isengard were non-existent before Angmar, Harad and Rhun were too far away. Gundabad and Dol Guldur were around when the Witch King ruled. Gameplay wise, the Thrall Master type unit, the Necromancer, can be recruited from the Inn. The castellans act as powerful beserker units but weak against heroes, inspiring fear and other abilities. More than just eye candy.

[Dalf32]

i believe his point was that angmar (and arnor) need some inn factions, as neither of them have any atm. dol guldor could be one of the ones for angmar.